The Official BNI Podcast

Synopsis

Inviting visitors to your BNI chapter is not asking them to do you a favor. Guest Amy Kritzman shows you how to listen for the cues that making inviting easy.

People talk about their business needs all the time. Every salesperson knocking at your door, sending you email, or calling on the phone is someone who needs more business. So is every person who comes to do work at your home or office location.

Invite everyone who asks you for business. Tell them to bring a friend or colleague. If they can’t make it, ask whether someone else from their company could.

Links

Visit the Gold Medal Ideas website.

Listen to Episode 837: Sponsoring 52 Members in 3½ Years.

Listen to Episode 639: How to Bring a Visitor into the Room.

Listen to Episode 633: I’ve Invited Everyone I Know.

The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs.

Complete Transcript of Episode 984

Priscilla:
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the official BNI podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the founder and the chief visionary officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello, Ivan. How are you? And where are you?

Ivan:
I am finally in Monaco. I’ve mentioned it a couple of times on the previous podcasts. I’m in Monaco for the [BNI] International Convention and for the [BNI] French [National] Conference. And I’ve been here before. I’m really enjoying myself. It’s good to be back here.

I have a guest today. It’s her first time on BNI Podcast, Amy Kritzman. Amy is the President of Gold Medal Ideas, where she helps businesses stand out through creative promotional products and branded merchandise. She currently holds the Promotional Products seat with BNI Networkers Plus [Chapter] in Long Grove, Illinois, [USA] and for nearly 15 years, BNI has been an important part of her professional journey.

Since early 2019, she’s also had the privilege of serving as a BNI Director, facilitating regional leadership trainings and launch trainings for a number of new chapters during the COVID years, the challenging years. She’s also proud to periodically serve as a substitute facilitator for [BNI US] National Speed Networking. Amy, did you know that we hold the Guinness World Record for speed networking?

Amy:
Oh, I did not. That’s fantastic.

Ivan:
Yeah, BNI holds the Guinness World Record for the most number of people at a speed networking event. It was in Australia at the last [BNI Global] Convention. So, welcome to BNI Podcast.

Amy:
Thank you.

Ivan:
Next time you do a National Speed Networking event, you can say BNI holds the Guinness World Record.

Amy:
I will do it.

Ivan:
All right. So your topic is Turning the Tables on Inviting. Talk about that because so many people ask me, “How do you invite?” For me, I don’t get it — it seems easy, but a lot of people struggle with this. So help us out.

Amy:
Oh, a lot of people struggle with it. I think that a lot of people struggle with it because they think it’s hard. They think they’re asking somebody to do them a favor. They just don’t understand all the time. And I think once you see that we’re listening to people talk about their business and their needs all the time, whether it’s customers or no matter who it is, and all we have to do is listen for the right cue. So, and it refers… there’s so many ways that this refers. It even works in referrals. But I’m talking about inviting.

So, for example, I get a phone call from a guy who says he’s with Verizon, and I say, well, okay, he wants to sell me something because I’m looking mobile, and it turns out he does want to sell me something. And my questions are: “Where do you work? What do you do? Are you responsible for growing the area? And do you live and work in the area?” And when those answers are all yes, clearly he needs to meet my network of people that I meet with because I’d like to introduce him to them. And before he has a chance to sell me anything, I have him registered to visit.

Ivan:
Yeah, absolutely. And I’ve had people on the podcast before that have said to their receptionist, “Put every cold call through to me,” and that’s what they do. They say, “I’ll meet with you. I’m happy to meet with you. Come meet me at this location at this time. Bring plenty of business cards, and we’ll talk.” And they get a lot of visitors that way. I love that technique.

Amy:
Yeah, it is fantastic, and I have a related story that I tell my chapters and I tell my members. About four years ago we needed a new roof and there was no roofer in my chapter and I went to another chapter, found a roofer, got it done, got the siding, spent a lot of money on it, so of course Facebook knows that I’m interested in this now.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Amy:
So Facebook says, “Here’s some pictures,” and I see a picture of a guy, and I like the looks of this guy. I like the truck. I like the ad. I have always felt a little bad that I connected through that Facebook ad because he probably had to pay for me to connect with him. And I said, “Can you give me a call?” He calls, and I say, “Tell me how you’re growing your business.” It led to an invitation. He joined the same week. He is the biggest referrer in our chapter, and has been for all the years he’s been in the chapter. The biggest referrer.

Ivan:
I love it, and roofing companies are great in BNI. I just sold a house that I used as a rental, and I needed to have it re-roofed. Used a BNI member to roof it. He came in quick. He did a great job. You know, when you’re using BNI members, I think they just do a cut above on a BNI referral.

Amy:
Absolutely, and with this particular guy, I got to tell you, a couple of weeks ago, he called me, because I’m also his [BNI] Director, he called and said, “Am I allowed to put in $500,000 for Thank You for Closed Business? And I said, “Well, I mean, is it real money? He said, “Yeah.” Well, a member referred him to one person, and then she took him all around the neighborhood, and he fixed everybody’s roofs.

Ivan: (chuckling)
Oh, yeah, that counts.

Amy:
I said, “Yeah. Yes, not only are you allowed to, but you must.” Yeah, you should absolutely.

Ivan:
All right. So, inviting doesn’t always start with who do I know. Talk about that.

Amy:
Inviting does not always start with who do I know, because we don’t always know the people that are calling us.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Amy:
And what we want to know is who’s already talking to me? Who has reason to be asking me for something. Well, then I can turn that into a conversation about what I want from them.

Ivan:
Right. It’s like the cold call that comes in. So, why do visitors matter? I mean, I know, but tell members. You’re a member and a director. Tell members why visitors matter.

Amy:
Well, we had a little session this morning at my BNI meeting, and we broke into groups with the five categories that fall under the Power of One. And I asked each group to tell us why that item was important to their businesses. And the kind of thing that comes out of that when it comes to visitors is what brings fresh energy into the room.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Amy:
And it gives us a chance to practice our messaging differently, new people to hear things, expanding the chapter’s reach, expanding our own reach, and we know that visitors do business with members, even if they are not interested in joining or not able to join at this time or apply at this time.

Ivan:
Yeah. Sometimes I’ve had visitors who, for whatever reason, they couldn’t join, and I’ve suggested to them, “Do you have somebody in your office that might be available?” And it’s amazing how they don’t think of that unless you present that idea to them, and so many times I’ve had people say, “Actually, I do have somebody in my office that would be able to do it,” and many times I would get an associate of the visitor to join.

Amy:
Yes, and often when I do have a new visitor on the hook, I will say, “And when you come, why don’t you bring somebody else with you? You might be more comfortable if you bring a friend, somebody else in your building, somebody else that you know who might want to meet some people.”

Ivan:
Right. You know that’s ironic because I actually started the third and fourth chapter of BNI for that very reason. One person didn’t want to come alone, brought a friend, and the two of them couldn’t join the second chapter because they were in the same profession that was represented there. So the two of them ended up opening up two more chapters, and it happened exactly as you’re describing there.

Amy:
Yeah, it’s great. It makes them feel a little more comfortable sometimes. Everybody doesn’t like to walk into a room full of strangers, believe it or not.

Ivan:
Yep, that’s very true. All right, so I’m going to change lanes slightly here. We’ve been talking about visitors, but you talk about being a Thank You for Closed Business junkie.

Amy:
I am totally a Thank You for Closed Business junkie. Here’s how that happened. You know, I’ve been around since about the end of 2011, and I’ve been a good solid member. I was a good solid member all along. You know, not the best, not the worst. We didn’t know the Power of One in those days. When we learned the Power of One was around the same time as we began to use the [BNI] regional websites. So one day I’m sitting looking out my window, and a great big tree had fallen on our lawn between my house and the next-door neighbor, and it didn’t do any damage, thank goodness. There was no landscaper in my chapter, so I said, “Well, what am I going to do now? Am I going to go to Google or am I going to go to BNI Connect?”

Ivan: (chuckling)

Amy:
Wait a minute! I got this handy-dandy regional website. I can go and find a landscaper in another chapter. Before I knew it, I had thousands of dollars in Thank You for Closed Business between my house, the next-door neighbor, and another neighbor down the street. And I said, “Wait, this was way too easy. I can do this.” And I started putting in my G.A.I.N.S. profile how much Thank You for Closed Business I was going to do that year, how much I was going to give to other members that year. And I have beat it every year that I have committed to a number.

Ivan:
See, this is why it’s so important to complete your profile on BNI Connect because when I’m looking for a profession, if they don’t have a reasonably well completed profile, I move on and to look for someone else. One of the ones that blew my mind the most was I was looking for a photographer, and I found several photographers in the area that I was looking for that didn’t put up their own photo.

Amy: (laughing)

Ivan:
A photographer who didn’t put up their own photo. It’s like, okay, you’re out. I’m not going to use you. And I hired a different photographer, which did have a great profile. So yeah, complete your profile.

Amy:
Absolutely.

Ivan:
Any last thought before we wrap up?

Amy:
Well, I love BNI. What could I tell you? I’m a big fan. I think I’ll stay.

Ivan:
Well, I’m really glad to hear that, and thank you so much for being on BNI Podcast today. I appreciate all that you do, and you had great content today.

Amy:
Thank you.

Ivan:
Thanks for being here. Priscilla, over to you.

Priscilla:
Okay. Thank you, Amy, and thank you, Ivan. I think that’s really, really nice and really a great podcast.

This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.

Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Synopsis

Just stepped down from your chapter’s leadership team? Mark Graber wants you as a mentor for the BNI Passport to Success program. The Passport Program is an engagement tool for BNI members and a retention tool for BNI chapters. It brings together everything a member should be doing to get the most out of BNI.

Why Should You Mentor?

Being a mentor keeps both you and the new member actively involved in BNI.

Going through the Passport Program again deepens your own relationships and networking skills.

Growing the chapter through by onboarding quality members generates more business for everyone.

Links

Visit Mark’s region, BNI British Columbia.

Listen to Episode 922: The Power Beneath the Surface.

Listen to Episode 942: Engaging Longtime Members.

Read The Networking Mentor.

The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs.

Complete Transcript of Episode 983

Priscilla:
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?

Ivan:
I am doing great. I’m in Austin preparing for the [BNI] Global Convention in Monaco, and the [BNI] French [Conference], also in Monaco. So I’ll be there later this week. And going to Convention is always a blast.

Priscilla: Mm hmm. Sounds fun.

Ivan:
I have a good friend on. This is his first time on BNI Podcast. I’m a little surprised it’s his first time. Mark has always got great content. Mark Graber is [BNI] Executive Director for Vancouver Island, Lower Mainland Southeast, Lower Mainland West, Northern Interior — that’s a long description — in British Columbia, Canada. He was a high school mathematics teacher, which I didn’t know, for 15 years, and a lecturer at Curtin University in Perth [Australia] in the business school for 13 years. He has three children. Sophie, I can’t pronounce the next name, is it Lachlan (LATCH-lann)?

Mark:
Lachlan (LOCK-luhn).

Ivan:
Lachlan, okay, and Ellie. Mark joined BNI as a member in 2004 in Perth, and he’s developing learning management systems primarily with Moodle. [He was] on the Inaugural Innovation Task Force for BNI under Graham Weihmiller; he was 10 years on the Founder’s Circle. He helped to develop BNI TV on YouTube. He is the one who came up with the concept or the phrase “Ivan Unplugged” for my Ask Ivan stuff, which I use a lot, Mark. And I mostly refer that it came from you. He’s been in BNI for 23 years. Mark Graber, welcome to the BNI Podcast.

Mark:
Oh, it’s wonderful to be here, Ivan. Thank you so much for having me, and [thanks] Priscilla, and thanks to Dana for coordinating all of it. It’s a real pleasure.

Ivan:
Yeah, everybody needs a Dana. She’s a great assistant, and I’m lucky to have her. So you helped to develop with Hazel the Passport Program, and the topic here is Passport + Mentors = Retention. So, talk a little bit about how the Passport program began.

Mark:
So, it began really with the retention problem within our region, and we were losing first-year members. We wanted greater retention. We know that when members stay longer, they pass larger referrals, and chapters grow larger, so we knew it was a moving target. And I’d heard too many times, and still do, that you know, major reason people left was that they were too busy. So together with my business partner Hazel Walker, we started, as Hazel calls it, spitballing — brainstorming ideas and concepts of how we could onboard new members really well, and make sure they covered all the major topics and sort of the situations they would encounter, and to guarantee that each member was receiving the same level of engagement and sort of understanding.

So I took it from my academic life, a Capstone Unit in the Bachelor of Business degree, where all the schools came together from management, marketing, economics, finance, business law, and we created a passport there. They would meet each other, because they were in their own independent silos, and they were meeting for the first time. And so, I translated that concept over about onboarding. So Hazel began to create all the content, and we kept, you know, adding, taking away, thinking what was most important. You know, the usual whiteboard days and design samples and printing out hard copies, and you know, we were exchanging hard copies at conferences eventually, when it spread to different countries. So that’s how it began.

Ivan:
So you talk about the Passport Program being an engagement tool, not an educational tool. Talk about that.

Mark:
Well, we wanted it because we’ve established the [BNI] Core Value of Building Relationships and recognized that the engagement was key to a member’s length of stay in BNI. And that it was all about understanding about how much you know people care before how much people know… you know all about that. And so we knew that great customer engagement was a key, and that journey has been built upon by many people within BNI. And I stand on the shoulders of greats — Andy Hart’s great work, Rob Gorecki’s great work. Working with Hazel has been amazing, and it’s not just one person developing it. It was like a series of these really great tools about what a member should be doing to make the most out of BNI and their journey in of BNI.

Ivan:
By the way, I agree with this focus on engagement. I think the success of a chapter is the quality of members, the quantity of members, and the engagement of the members, so I couldn’t agree more. Now the Passport Program requires mentors. Talk about that.

Mark:
So the hardest part is really, I think, is filling the 10 mentor seats within the Passport Program. In the initial days, it was about you know being a Visitor host for a day, engaging with the Communications Coordinator, understanding what the VP did. But as we’ve grown, and of course, and as technology is a part of our life and our BNI life, there’s much greater emphasis on learning some of the technology. So we need mentors in roles, and we need senior members who’ve been in chapters for a while to translate and give that opportunity of building relationships and continuing that by our newest members and mentoring and standing up. So, I’ve seen it in my region, a chapter that was at 40 [members] going to 65 and managing the newest members coming up. You’re inviting 60 potential visitors every single month, and those visitors turn into members, and the numbers don’t lie. We know that in order to get great members, we need members with great character that really want to and live the Givers Gain philosophy. What we used to say, “bleed burgundy,” Ivan. You know, understand what it means to be an effective mentor, and that was so eloquently put in Stephen M. R. Covey’s book, The Speed of Trust, about what do we look at with great character.

Ivan:
Yeah, Stephen M. R. Covey, he’s a good friend. Love his book, The Speed of Trust. He’s also a member of the Transformational Leadership Council.

Mark:
Yeah, brilliant. And I think we had him.. did we have him at a conference one time?

Ivan:
Yeah, we had him at a [BNI] Conference.

Mark:
Yeah, absolutely. He was brilliant. Yeah.

Ivan:
Yeah. Now, why would someone want to be a mentor?

Mark:
Well, I think the key here is the ability to transfer your knowledge. We know that when you help other people, you’re going to help yourself.

Ivan:
Yep. 100%.

Mark:
So the key here for being the mentor is keeping people also actively involved. Sometimes when you step down from a Leadership Team, it’s like, oh, this is the end of my role of visibility. When actually, sometimes it’s more important to be a great mentor. You’ve got a chapter at 65 [members] that’s interviewing, you know, 20 potential applicants every single month. You need great mentors because the Passport Program is crucial to the onboarding of those 20 brand new members, and so we encourage mentors to continue to take a role, to continue to be involved. It’s key, and it’s the key as you grow.

Ivan:
So I think you hit the key point that being a mentor improves your own game, and I talk about that in the short book I wrote, The Networking Mentor, and I tell a story in there about coaching a bunch of 10-year-olds on chess and how my game improved when I coached 10-year-olds, and it was amazing to me that my game would improve by coaching 10-year-olds. So I think if you want to be a mentor, you not only help other people, but you can improve your own participation in BNI.

Mark:
Correct, and I’ve seen great successful chapters run as teams, and these teams of mentors on many levels really support that. You know, and it gives the newest member an opportunity to appreciate how the team works, the piece of the jigsaw puzzle, putting it all together.

Ivan:
Yeah. So, have you talked about that… I know integrity built through honesty. You want to talk about that a little bit?

Mark:
Well, I think really what we’re looking for here is mentors that are really being authentic about why they’re being in BNI. Why do they renew for 15 years in a row, 17 years in a row, understanding that BNI is a long game.

Ivan:
You know, Mark, we have members who’ve been in for over 40 years.

Mark:
I know it’s incredible, from the very first. It’s incredible. So you know that… and they’re all treated equally, and that equality is key. And you know, and Covey talks about the intent. What is the intent? The intent is to grow. What’s our motive to grow? Our motive to grow is to make you more successful. More members… we know the statistics, they don’t lie, they tell us the truth. That’s more members, more referrals, more average referral, more average receipt value, etc.

Ivan:
Yeah, so great successful chapters run as teams on a lot of levels. You want to talk about that before we wrap up?

Mark:
I want to I make it clear to people that they see might see three people at the front of a meeting one time, and think that those three people are doing everything. But there’s people and teams that lead behind the BNI Plus team, the Membership Committee team, the Visitor Host Team, the Follow-Up Team, the Greeter-Shepherd-Helper Registration Table Team, the IT Production Team. And so when new members come in and see and be a part of that team, that’s a real sense of belonging. They get to see how it works and to visualize it, to engage it, and to see what does it mean to be there at six a.m. when we’ve got a visitors day and we’ve got 40 visitors. What does it take? All of those experiences, and so the passport program was about that engagement into various experiences about being a BNI member and doing it with the right people in your first three months because that’s key and therefore getting people as mentors to help them through that journey.

Ivan:
You believe that the tools and the statistics that we have through BNI Connect have value. Do you want to talk about that briefly before we wrap?

Mark:
Sure, absolutely. I just wanted to say thank you to Dr. Caroline Irving, and thank you very much to the ELT for all the work, great work that she does. So we know that there are tools out there and utilizing… so just looking at member traffic lights, members who sponsor, members who are great in CEU points, etc. That’s really where my guide is to be able to try and find the correct mentor. So it’s continually my search. So to all of my members listening, please, if you want to take on a mentor role, please get in contact with us. We’d love it.

Ivan:
Absolutely. Mark, thanks so much for being on BNI Podcast. Mark’s website for BNI is www.bnibc.ca – for Canada. Thanks so much, Mark. It was great having you on, and come back again.

Mark:
Thank you very much, Ivan. Thank you, Priscilla. I loved it.

Ivan:
Over to you, Priscilla.

Priscilla:

You’re welcome. Okay, well, I think that’s it for this week. Thank you both so much for great information.

This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.

Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Synopsis

Credibility is a key element of BNI’s VCP (Visibility, Credibility, Profitability) process. If you have no credibility, people will not work with with you, refer you, or follow your lead. The key to credibility is behavior. It’s doing what you say you will.

According to special guest Steve Farber, that means much more than following through on your commitments. Everything you say about what you stand for and what your values are is also a commitment. If you want to be a credible leader, you need to be a living, breathing, walking example of your values.

Links

Listen to Episode 635: Love Is Good Business.

Visit Steve’s Extreme Leadership website.

Get your copy of The Radical Promise: Mastering the Art of Doing What You Say You Will Do.

The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs.

Complete Transcript of Episode 982

Priscilla:
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?

Ivan:
I am home in Austin, Texas, this week, preparing for the [BNI] Global Convention, and I’ve got two really good friends who are coming to visit us. Dawn Lyons and Mike Macedonio are coming this week, so I’m looking forward to seeing them. Of course, you know Dawn and Mike.

Priscilla:
I know them well.

Ivan:
So they’re hanging out at my house later this week.

Priscilla:
Oh, they must be loving that.

Ivan:
Yeah, we have a good time together. So I’ve got a guest today. He has been on my podcast before, episode number 635, “Love is Good Business,” which is based on his previous book. Which, by the way, I loved that book, and I kind of argued with him at first that “Come on, you know, business and love. Seriously, Steve?” And he was like, “Yeah.” And then when he explained, I’m like, “Wow, yeah, love is damn good business.”

So Steve is a best-selling author. He’s a sought-after keynote speaker. He has spoken at a BNI Convention. I would argue probably one of the top two or three speakers I’ve ever had at a Convention in the 30-plus years that I’ve been doing Conventions. He’s a seasoned leadership coach consultant. He’s worked with a lot of public and private organizations, including BNI. He’s an author of six acclaimed books on leadership, including The Radical Leap which earned Fast Company’s Readers’ Choice Award and was named one of the 100 Best Business Books of All Time. Wow!

And his newest book, The Radical Promise: Mastering the Art of Doing What You Say You Will Do, which I think is really, really important, it was co-written with two of his good friends, Jim Kouzes, I think I’m pronouncing that right, and Barry Posner. Steve, welcome to the BNI Podcast.

Steve:
Thank you, Ivan. Great to be back with you, and thank you. Such high praise from you. I appreciate that.

Ivan:
Well, I mean it too. That’s the really nice part. Hey, so credibility is behavior, you suggest in the book. Talk about that a little bit.

Steve:
Yeah. So my co-authors in the book, Jim Kouzes and Barry Posner, have been conducting research on leadership for 50 years now. Jim is my most significant mentor, so it was really cool, full circle thing writing a book with him, but their research started with a very simple question, which is: What do you look for and admire in a leader? Someone whose direction you would willingly follow.             

The key word there is willingly, not because you have to, but because you want to. And they asked that question all around the world, across industries, across cultures, and the simple answer that came up again and again, back then and still to this day, is credibility. If this leader is not credible, I’ll follow because I have to – if they’re signing my paycheck, for example.

Ivan:
Mm hmm.

Steve:
But in order to engender commitment, I have to see this person as credible. And what then does credibility look like behaviorally? Simply put, a credible person is somebody who does what they say they’re going to do. So this idea of doing what you say you will do is, on the surface, such a simple thing that seems painfully obvious, but there’s a lot of nuance to it, and there’s a lot of challenge to it, and the stakes are very, very high. Because if we’re not seen as a person whose actions are congruent with their words, the whole foundation for leadership just crumbles.

Ivan:
Yeah, you know, the older I get, the less I believe in words, and the more I believe in behaviors. And now, words are powerful, don’t get me wrong, but behaviors are even more powerful. And credibility is part of the key fundamentals of what we teach with Visibility, Credibility, and then Profitability in terms of generating referrals. So, this fits really well with what we teach in BNI.

Steve:
Yeah, yeah. The words are really easy to use without any intention of following through, right? Yeah, you know flap our gums relentlessly and say things that we don’t really mean, or say things because they sound convenient in the moment. But words are important. I mean, we do want our leaders to say, for example, what commitments they’re going to make.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Steve:
We want them to say what values are important, you know. So with BNI, with your prevailing ethos of Givers Gain®, that’s not something you just hope people will experience. You say it. And once you say it, you’re putting a stake in the ground that says now measure us against this, and that’s what every leader should be doing. We need to say, “Here’s what I stand for. Here’s what’s important around here. These are the values that we should be adhering to. These are the standards that we set. These are the objectives that we have.” I say it, but then, of course, I need to be the walking, talking, living, breathing example of those words that come out of my mouth.

Ivan: Yeah, I mean, doing what you say is simple, but it’s not easy because following those words is the tough part.

Steve:
Yes, and it happens on a number of different levels. So you know, on the surface… and this is something that we really, I think we really do a good job of teasing out the nuances in this in the book because you know it’s written as a story, it’s written as a novel, so you get a chance to really experience what it’s like to stray from that, as the characters do in the book. It’s easy to lose sight of all of this, but the nuances are: on the surface, it sounds really simple. Doing what you say you will do is following through on promises and commitments. Okay, I tell you I’m going to call you tomorrow at 10 o’clock, I call you tomorrow at 10 o’clock. But on a deeper level, it’s what we were just talking about a couple minutes ago. Am I doing the values that I say are important? Am I modeling and leading by example through the things that are important to all of us on a values level? And when you look at the consequences, the advantages of being a congruent leader like that, and you look at the consequences of not doing that, what happens to the culture? What happens to the to the productivity and everything else? That’s where it really becomes very personal very quickly.

Ivan:
Yeah, you use an example of “Hey, I’ll call you tomorrow at 10 o’clock.” I would say you really want to under-promise and over-deliver. So I would often say, “I’ll get back to you before the end of the day tomorrow,” and then I would call them at 10 o’clock.

Steve:
Right.

Ivan:
So it’s like, “Oh wow, you got back [to me] early.”

Steve:
Yeah.

Ivan:
So you kind of over-deliver if possible, and to me that really shows a level of credibility when you show up even stronger than what you promised.

Steve:
Right, I agree. And there’s a challenge here most people aren’t even really aware of in my experience, and that is – oftentimes I make promises that I don’t even know I made. So, for example, if I say, “Hey, Ivan, I’m going to be in Austin next week. We should have lunch,” and maybe I’m thinking “or not.”

Ivan: (chuckling)

Steve:
You know, if it’s convenient, if it works out. But what are you likely to hear? Farber is going to be in town next week, and we’re going to have lunch. So next week comes and goes. We don’t have lunch. I didn’t follow through on that commitment because I didn’t even realize that I made it.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Steve:
And what happens? My credibility is still damaged in your eyes.

Ivan:
Yeah. All right. So you also talk about love and credibility being inseparable, and of course, episode number 635 was about your book Love Is Your Damn Good Business, which I really enjoyed. Talk about love and credibility being inseparable.

Steve:
Yeah, so love without credibility is just sentiment, right? It’s a greeting card basically.

Ivan:
Yes.

Steve:
So the idea of love in business, you know, we want our clients to love doing business with us. That’s where our advantage comes from. In order to make that happen in a sustainable way over time, we have to create an environment or a culture, a dynamic that people love working in. And I can’t do that as a leader unless I’ve got it myself first. It’s got to be authentic. I need to love this business, the people I’m working with, people I’m working for – otherwise, known as my customers.

So all that stuff again, it’s easy to say. You can print the banners and the buttons and you know bumper stickers about how much we love our customers, but the credibility comes from acting in a way that demonstrates that. So, what should love look like in the way that we do business is the question, and then how well and how consistently do we do that? So, credibility without love, it’s still a good thing, right?

Ivan:
Yeah.

Steve:
But love without credibility is just like I said, it’s an empty sentiment, and it’s more likely to create cynicism than it is to create any kind of advantage.

Ivan:
Yeah. What other message do you have from the book that you think my BNI members would have value from?

Steve:

Yeah. I think it’s really about when you look at… let’s talk about BNI members in particular. And again, I come back to Givers Gain® because to me, and I actually wrote about you guys in Love is Just Damn Good Business, and I used that example. So for a member, the question is: Am I — me personally, am I the walking, talking, living, breathing example of Givers Gain? Am I demonstrating what it’s like to give first and to be concerned with that, and to look at the value that I’m bringing to my fellow members and the people around me? For every value that we profess, to turn it back around and insert that first-person singular pronoun “I” — Am I doing this? And once I have the credibility, then I can demand it of others as well.

Ivan:
Yeah. It’s easy to say somebody else doesn’t practice Givers Gain®, but you got to start with yourself. Are you practicing it before you can point at other people? It’s that famous old saying that when I point at you, I’ve got three fingers pointing back to me.

Steve:
Right. Yes.

Ivan:
Yeah. All right. So your website is www.theradicalpromise.com. theradicalpromise.com. Any last thought before we wrap?

Steve:
Yeah. Just thank you for having me on the podcast again, Ivan. And I hope people will take that book to heart. You’ll enjoy the story, and then it ends with a very significant application section. So you’ll have the experience, and then you’ll know exactly what roadmap to follow to master the art of doing what you say you will do.

Ivan:
Well, Steve, thank you very much. I consider you a friend. You’re a participant in the Transformational Leadership Council with me, so I see you at least once or twice a year, and look forward to seeing you again. Thanks for being on BNI Podcast.

Steve:
Thank you.

Ivan:
Over to you, Priscilla.

Priscilla:
Okay, that was wonderful. I really look forward to looking at your book and reading it.

Ivan:
There’ll be a test next week, Priscilla.

Priscilla: (chuckling)
Okay, I’m ready for it. I think that’s it for this week.

This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.

Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Synopsis

Dean Jackson explains to guest host Spencer Reynolds how you can use the psychology behind referrals to your benefit in BNI and in business.

Referrals are driven by self-preservation. People make referrals to add value to their own social groups.

People are highly protective of their close connections and want to share good experiences and warn against bad ones.

Recommending useful resources raises a person’s standing within their group, creating a natural sense of mutual value exchange.

Instead of asking your referral partners to tell people about you, train them to identify opportunities and report them back to you.

Make the referrer the hero. Create valuable, easy-to-share materials your referral partners can pass along.

Links

Visit Dean’s website: https://deanjackson.com.

Listen to the I Love Marketing Podcast.

Visit the BNI Tampa Bay website.

The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs.

Complete Transcript of Episode 981

Priscilla:
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to The Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California. And I’m joined on the phone today by Spencer Reynolds, who is standing in today as a guest host for Dr. Misner, and he will be joining us from time to time. Hello, Spencer. Welcome to the podcast.

Spencer:
Thank you, Priscilla. I appreciate it. Excited to be with you.

Priscilla:
It’s great to have you. And who are you presenting us with today?

Spencer:
Today’s guest is someone that has spent decades, honestly, with business owners and teaching them a really powerful truth about marketing, and that it’s the world happens through relationships and trust and referrals. He’s a legendary marketer. He’s a co-host of an iconic podcast called I Love Marketing, and he’s a brilliant thinker on philosophy. And this is a good friend of mine. His name is Dean Jackson. Dean, welcome to the show.

Dean:
Thank you. Welcome. Glad to be here.

Spencer:
Yeah, you know, Dean, it’s hard to believe that we’ve known each other for 24 years now.

Dean:
Is that how long it’s been? That’s crazy.

Spencer:
And I’m only 22 in my head, so that math.

Dean:
Yeah, exactly. Me too. That’s so funny. We actually had Dr. Misner on our I Love Marketing podcast years ago.

Spencer:
Fantastic. Well, Dean, today I really want to talk about some of the wisdom that you’ve learned over years inside of marketing, and referrals in particular. But let’s talk about why. You know, Simon Sinek says start with why. So let’s start with why do people refer?

Dean:
I think that’s the biggest misconception that people have is that often one of the first blocks we have to overcome to really optimize the number of referrals that you can get, is to understand that people are not referring as a favor to you or a gift to you. When you have this mindset that you have to earn referrals or that you are somehow asking for referrals, you’re going down a path that is kind of counter to what we, as species, have evolved to do. As long as we have been playing the cooperation game and escape the food chain, basically we’ve become the most successful species ever. That we have learned the importance of looking out for each other and maintaining what I call our status in the herd. That if we look at it, that that’s the primary reason that we do anything, and the reason that we avoid anything is if we feel like something might damage our status in the herd.

And it’s a very, very… you know, it goes all the way back to when we were gathering as you know tribes of 150 people or groups, that we always had to kind of look out for each other, and we realized that we were going to be better off if we were constantly looking out for and adding value collectively. And so you see the remnants of these things happen, you know, evolve into even, our society things. The way we are today, we’re not kind of out on the savanna with our just 150 people. We’re in big cities, but we’re still among our group of 150 people. There’s been a lot of research on this, and you may have heard of Robin Dunbar.

Spencer:
Yeah.

Dean:
His research on what’s become known as Dunbar’s Number, and that number is 150, and it’s the number of relationships that we can maintain. Now we may know and recognize 1000 or more people, but we truly have relationship with 150, and we’re very guarded in those relationships. It’s our role to add value to our herd and to protect our herd from getting damaged. That’s why we’re…  If you look at everything we do, we want to recommend things to people.

Spencer:
Yeah, we do.

Dean:
You see it all the time. If you see a movie, or if we’re talking about movies, we already know, “You got to see this one.” or “Oh, don’t see that one.” We’re even guarding people’s experiences. We don’t want them to waste their time reading a book that wasn’t worth it or making sure that they do read a book that was. And it’s the same thing for service providers and products that we that we come in contact with.

Spencer:
Talk more about this status in the herd. Because you came out to Tampa [Florida] in our [BNI] region and did a conversation with me on stage at one of our big conferences, and that’s been talked about so much. That’s why I really wanted to bring you here. So give us that hunter-gatherer conversation so that people can hear you.

Dean:
If we look at it, that we constantly are looking to, I’ll call it like “keep our balanced books.” That this is what Robert Cialdini would talk about with reciprocation. That if I do something nice for you, then you kind of owe me a favor, and you see that all the time playing out just in our normal interactions. But how that would have worked back then is let’s say we’re out and we’re hunting and gathering, and I find a big patch of blueberries, and I see you on the trail, and I say, “Hey, Spencer, there’s a big patch of blueberries over that hill. Go get you some blueberries, too. And I’m going to carry these big ones all the way back to the camp.”

Now, in that moment, I am higher status than you because I have just added value to you. You feel this need to balance that out, so you may say to me, “Well, watch out behind those rocks because I saw a lion over there,” and now we’re even. I showed you where the blueberries were. You protected me from the lion. That’s the way the give and take of society works. So we’re constantly looking for opportunities to protect our herd and to guide our herd to different things. And whenever we do something nice for somebody or thoughtful for somebody, that is raising our status. They kind of owe us one in a way, and that’s what really drives the way that we that we interact with people and the way that we introduce new things or protect people. That’s why you see, like you see it all the time. So many people, like we depend on all the people around us. That’s why testimonials, and that’s why reviews and things are kind of like… we’re by proxy taking somebody else’s… They’re helpfully giving us advice on something.

Spencer:
Yeah, and that’s what I was going to ask: is why does that matter more now than it ever has in the past?

Dean:
Yeah, because there’s so many people that we don’t know that are trying to take advantage of us, you know. And so that’s why we try and protect the people that we know in our 150. Imagine, a city is just all these interlaced herds of your inner circle of 150 people And let’s just talk about Dunbar’s Number there. The 150 that we’re talking about are people that if you saw them at the grocery store, you’d recognize them by name. You’d stop and have a conversation with them. You have a relationship with them, and we’re constantly in conversation with those people, and that’s the absolute key to the referrals – that we have a relationship with somebody, we’re going to have conversation with them, and in those conversations, certain things have to take place. They have to notice that the conversation is about whatever it is that would be useful for you. They have to think about you, and then they have to introduce you to the person that they have the conversation with, and that’s how referrals actually happen.

Somebody, if I’m a real estate agent and I’m talking with one of my top 150, and they’re saying, “Oh, we’re getting transferred. We’re going to have to sell the house and move to Poughkeepsie.” Now, if I am, you know, if I’m in that situation and I hear somebody saying that, I may say, “Well, you should call Spencer because Spencer’s a great realtor, he can help you out. That’s my realtor. Tell him I told you to call.” That kind of thinking that we’re doing the right thing, and that’s often what people train their clients to do. They’ll tell people make sure and tell your friends about me, but what that doesn’t do is that doesn’t connect the dots between you and the person that you are referring.

And it’s an important thing because then somebody you know, you may run into them at the grocery store, and they’ll say, “Hey, did my friend Spencer ever give you a call?” “No, no, I never heard from him.” “Oh well, I guess they’re gone now.” “But I tell people about you all the time.” You hear people say that, right? That you encourage people to tell people about you. That’s exactly what they do. And what would be more valuable is instead of concentrating on them telling people about you, we need to train them to tell you about people. To tell you about their friends that are moving, and the best way to do that is to give them the opportunity to be the hero. So if I have a book…

Spencer:
Yeah. And Dean, we are going to have to wrap up here in just a minute. So I’m just wanting to make sure that you got that, and that we can finish up with this thought because this is good.

Dean:
No problem. So if I have a book called How to Sell Your House for Top Dollar Fast, and I train my clients to say, “Hey, just a quick note in case you hear someone talking about selling their house, and then if you do, give me a call or text me, and I’ll give you a copy of my book to give to them.” Now you’re giving something of value to somebody that’s going to make them look like a very thoughtful person. That’s going to reflect well on their status, that you thoughtfully went out of your way and you got me something.

Spencer:
And just like that, you raise your status in the herd.

Dean:
That’s exactly right.

Spencer:
Fantastic. Well, Dean, this is really good. I really hope people can see that inside of the philosophy. We have to think a little deeper than just surface level on the motivations of why people want to refer us, and I think this was a really great way to teach some of that. So thank you so much for your time. What’s the best way for people to be able to find out more about you if they want to hear more of this, Dean?

Dean:
I’m pretty easy to find at deanjackson.com.

Spencer:
There you go. Priscilla, back to you.

Priscilla:

Okay, perfect. Thank you both so much. That’s it for this week.

This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.

Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Synopsis

Daniela Antongiovanni says kind leadership begins with listening beyond people’s behavior to the human needs underneath. Leaders fear that if they’re kind, they will be less effective, less authoritative, but the opposite is true. It’s much easier to judge or withdraw or hide behind authority instead of remaining open and curious and wanting to connect.

Model the behavior you want to see in your company, your team, or your BNI chapter. If you make people feel valued and understood, it’s easier to work with them to look at the impact of their behavior and find a better way forward.

Links

Listen to Episode 295: Lead from Among, Not from Above.

Listen to Episode 396: Host Leadership.

Listen to Episode 475: A Path to Business Leadership.

The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs.

Complete Transcript of Episode 980

Priscilla:
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?

Ivan:
I am in California today. I’m about to leave for the membership drive cruise, which we do almost every year, and I get to hang out with 100 of my closest friends, BNI members from all over the United States, so it’s always fun to do these.

Priscilla:
Oh, that sounds great!

Ivan:
Today I’ve got a guest, and she’s an interpreter, so she’s going to laugh at my interpretation of her… pronunciation of her last name. But I’ve known Daniella for a long time, Daniela Antongiovanni. Did I get it close?

Daniela:
Close enough, yeah.  (laughing)

Ivan:
Close enough (chuckling). You can call me miss-ner if you want then, Daniela. I’ve known Daniela a long time. Let me introduce her, and then I’ll tell you a quick story. She’s an interpreter, a business coach, an expert in nonviolent communication in a BNI franchise. What do they all have in common? Well, that’s what she’s going to talk about.

So we’re going to listen to that. She had visited a BNI meeting, I think the first one was in 2014, and was really shocked about the way people were doing business. And she recognized that this was going to make a difference in the world, and she joined BNI in 2015, became a Director Consultant in 2016 and Executive Director in 2020. I first met her when she was an interpreter for me, and I do this with all interpreters. I say, “Hey, if I go too fast, just you know, have somebody raise their hands, raise their arms, so that I can know we’re going too fast.”

And Daniela was like, “No, that’s not going to be a problem. Don’t worry about that.” And as soon as she said that, I knew I had a great interpreter because when the interpreters say, “Oh yeah, yeah, I’ll have somebody slow you down,” then I know I have an interpreter and I have to slow down. But with Daniela, she is right on it. She’s a great interpreter and a great Executive Director. Welcome to the BNI podcast, Daniela.

Daniela:
Thank you, Ivan. That’s very nice.

Ivan:
I told you that story, didn’t I?

Daniela:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. (both laughing) If you want, I have a counter story to that.

Ivan:
Well, I don’t want to take too much time from the podcast.

Daniela:
No, no, no. We’ll do it in person. Okay.

Ivan:
Okay. So, what is kind leadership, and why is it better?

Daniela:
Yes, I’ll go into the definition. But before that, let me recall a moment when I saw it so clearly in action, and actually that was through you, because when we first met in 2016 at the BNI Italy National Conference in Milan, where I was for the first time honored to be your interpreter. Actually, I found something very surprising happening because after your keynote, I was supposing that you would retreat to the VIP room, as many other high-profile speakers I had translated were doing all the time. And instead you came up straight to the interpreting booth, and you said to me, “Come with me. I want to meet the members. I want to shake their hands. I want to do selfies. I want to answer their questions. I want to be there for them.” And you did. And there, I realized that you know I was working with a very special and kind leader, because you were not using status to create distance, you were creating connection. And that was a turning point in my professional evolution because that made me genuinely curious about BNI, and still today I’m learning from the way you lead. So…

Ivan:
That’s very sweet of you to say, Daniela, and I appreciate it. I think it’s important that I go out and meet as many members as possible, and I have members say to me, “Oh, thank you so much. You know, it must be really difficult to do this.” And I and I usually tell them, “Look, I could be digging ditches. This is way easier than digging ditches. I’m happy to take photographs.”

Daniela:
Yeah, yeah. Then kind leadership actually for me begins exactly with this. It begins with listening beyond people’s behavior to the human needs underneath. Because tension and conflicts arise at the surface. Because we like to judge people, we judge them by what they do, what they say, by what they don’t do or don’t say. And then we like to be right when we judge them. But everybody sees reality from a different perspective, and we speak from experience, from our values, from our wounds, from our needs and desires, and they’re not right or wrong; they just are. And the point is that very often the needs are unexpressed, either because we’re not fully aware of them, or because by expressing them, maybe we will be made uncomfortable, and so we don’t really like that. So a kind leader is one who likes to go beneath the surface, be curious.

Ivan:
Mm hmm.

Daniela:
Which doesn’t mean that every behavior is acceptable. It means that when you understand the need that is engendering that behavior, you can look at the impact together, and together you can find a better way forward. That’s a healthy relationship, and we can do that every day when we meet people. And you know, the usual question is, “How are you?

Ivan:
Yeah.

Daniela:
Instead of just settling with the, “Fine, great,” in America, you say “terrific,” right? (both chuckling) Why don’t we just stay there and remain present, and we’ll meet the human being before the business person?

Ivan:
Yeah

Daniela:
That’s kind, I think.

Ivan:
Yeah, that is. I try to say I have a full life when I’m asked that question.

Daniela:
Yeah. Yes.

Ivan:
It could be I’m crazy busy, but it’s still full. I don’t say I’m crazy busy. I say I have a full life. I talked about this on a podcast before. So, what are some of your favorite questions?

Daniela:
My favorite questions are, for example, when I meet people, the first one is very open. The very open question is, “How’s life working out for you?” And then I project that into the future, and I ask them whether they have a dream they’re working on, if they’re creating something. And then, since life is not always so sweet, it’s also important to know what challenges are keeping you up at night.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Daniela:
But my all favorite question is, “What would you need right now?” Because that helps them go inside, and when you go inside, everybody knows what they know. And I just sometimes joke about and say, “Well, you can’t say a clone,” but very often they tell you right away what they need, and we can do that for them.

Ivan:
Do you find that the question about challenges needs to be towards the end of the conversation, not in the beginning, because they don’t really know you? My experience is, I’ve got to get them to open up before I ask them that question.

Daniela:
Yes, there needs to be possibly a meaningful relationship already in place, or in any case, some degree of safety, because safety is what makes people take their armor off and speak openly, and they can listen deeply. You can connect on a more profound level with people. Yes.

Ivan:
And this works outside BNI as well as inside BNI, I’m guessing.

Daniela:
Absolutely. That’s where the skepticism is strongest, where I think the need is highest because they know….

Ivan:
I like that. Repeat that. Repeat that. That’s powerful.

Daniela:
Yeah, because the skepticism is strongest outside BNI because there’s a very competitive culture around leaders, and the need is the highest, I think. Yes, absolutely. Because leaders fear that if they’re kind, they will be less effective, less authoritative. And let me tell you a story about that.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Daniela:
I was coaching the top managers in an automotive company there, and the production manager was very skeptical, and he argued, “You know, I have 138 males from different cultures. It can get very rough. We have war rooms to resolve conflicts,” which I think is quite ridiculous. They should be called peace rooms if they want to be constructive. (both chuckling) But anyway, this is what they do. And then I said to him, “You know, but why don’t you just, you know, it may not be easy, but it’s surely simple. Be what you would like to see in your department.” Someone else said that before me, right? So he started going down to the factory floor, greeting them, “Hey, how are you? Is there anything I can do for you?” And they were very uncomfortable at first, and they made jokes.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Daniela:
They were shy, but he continued. And after six months, they were starting to support each other and begin to work as a team. They were going out for lunch together, which is not so hard for Italians normally, but they need a special invitation.

Ivan: (laughing)

Daniela:
Okay, and that was amazing because then the results came.

Ivan:
Right.

Daniela:
And so you see, kind leadership or kindness in general, changes the quality of the relationships, and when you change the quality of the relationships, that changes the results.

Ivan:
Yeah, it absolutely does. And you know, there’s a school of thought about aggressive leadership, and there are a number of billionaires, who I won’t name, that have that track record. But that’s just not who I want to be. You know, success to me is not just about the success of the business, but it’s the success of the relationships that you have. And so, I love this idea of kind leadership.

Daniela:
Yes.

Ivan:
Now, having said that, is being kind not considered… This is a setup question because I know the answer. Is being kind not considered a sign of weakness? I

Daniela:
It is often mistaken for that, but I think it really requires courage. Because it’s much easier to judge or withdraw or hide behind authority instead of remaining open and curious and wanting to connect. And you know, make that other person feel seen, understood, and valued-a real connection. That’s what we need most, along with grounding. That’s how we build meaningful relationships. The ones that make leaders not feel lonely. Sometimes it can feel lonely at the top, and when you are creating an inner circle, where you can feel safe, where you can speak openly, where you can listen deeply, challenge respectfully, and take responsibility for the impact that you are making. I think that is not lowering the bar, and that is not weak. That is not soft leadership. That is kind leadership. That’s a way of really building meaningful relationships. Sometimes they can go even beyond business in BNI, for example. There’s a beautiful ecosystem for that. And you know, did I tell you about Lorenzo? Lorenzo, we joined together the same week in 2015 in January, we began as fellow members. Today, he is a closest friend of mine, besides being my heads of communication. And BNI is a perfect ecosystem for this. And it doesn’t really surprise me that we made it into the Inc. 5000 list. Absolutely.

Ivan:
Yes, we have just recently. BNI made it into that. Well, I agree with you. Kindness is often seen as a weakness, but it’s not. And I tell, you know, we don’t train people. People become leaders, and they’re not necessarily trained to be leaders. But I think if you generally can, you know, apply the systems and the rules more like Mandela than Attila, you’re going to be a good leader. And that’s one of the things that we say. Well, we’re over time, Daniela. Is there any last thought before we wrap?

Daniela:
The last thought is really kind leadership is not soft leadership. Kindness doesn’t make our leadership role less challenging, but we are no longer feeling alone.

Ivan:
Yeah, I love it. Daniela, you have a couple of websites, dacoach.it and flowxhub.it.

Daniela:
Yes.

Ivan:
Thank you so much for being here. I hope to see you on my next visit to Italy.

Daniela:
Yes, absolutely, and we’ll meet at Global Convention very easily.

Ivan:
Absolutely.

Daniela:
Okay, I’m looking forward.

Ivan:
Over to you, Priscilla.

Priscilla:

Okay, well, that’s it for this week. Thank you so much. I enjoyed it very, very much.

This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.

Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.