STEM-Talk

Today we have Dr. Tommy Wood, a neuroscientist and frequent STEM-Talk guest who joins today on the eve of the publication of his first book, “The Stimulated Mind: Future-Proof Your Brain from Dementia and Stay Sharp at Any Age.”

Tommy is an Associate Professor of Pediatrics and Neuroscience at the University of Washington, where his laboratory focuses on brain health across human lifespan. Tommy is a colleague and good friend who also is a Visiting Research Scientist here at IHMC.

Today we talk to Tommy about his mission to dispel the myth that the brain is doomed to decline with age. His book, which publishes on March 24 but is available for pre-order on Amazon, offers science-backed strategies to enhance mental sharpness and prevent cognitive decline, including Alzheimer’s disease.

There was so much to unpack with Tommy about his book, that we decided to split his interview into two parts. Today we talk to Tommy about the history of neuroscience and how researchers go about studying the brain. We also have a conversation with Tommy about what is holding us back in terms of addressing an ever-increasing burden of cognitive and mental health disorders we are experiencing not only here in the U.S., but also around the world. In part two of Tommy’ interview, which will air in a few weeks following today’s episode, Tommy shares science-backed strategies to help people future-proof their brains.

Tommy’s lab at the University of Washington focuses on brain health across the lifespan. He conducts research that focuses on ways to treat a range of brain injuries, including babies born preterm and adults who experience brain trauma. He also investigates lifestyle factors that affect long-term cognitive function and increase the risk of dementia.

Tommy has a bachelor’s degree in biochemistry from the University of Cambridge, a medical degree from the University of Oxford, and a Ph.D. in Physiology and Neuroscience from the University of Oslo.

Show notes:

[00:04:04] Dawn opens our interview congratulating Tommy on his new book, “The Stimulated Mind.” Dawn asks Tommy what inspired him to write his first book.

[00:07:29] Since writing the book consumed more than 18 months of Tommy’s life, Dawn asks Tommy if he thinks he’ll write another one.

[00:09:36] Dawn asks if it’s fair to say that the overarching theme of “The Stimulated Mind” is that the conventional belief the adult brain is fixed and incapable of change is wrong.

[00:17:35] Ken explains that Tommy opens his book with a story about a study on barn owls, where researchers outfitted a group of owls with prism goggles that altered the perceived position of objects in the owls’ vision. While young owls were able to quickly adapt to the change in their vision and return to normal behavior and activities, adult owls, even after months of wearing the goggles, were unable to adapt and would miss mice that were directly under their beaks. However, the research group amended their study design and found something interesting. Ken asks Tommy to explain what they found when they amended their design.

[00:22:40] Ken asks Tommy to share how a human study, which outfitted participants with goggles that flipped their vision upside down, demonstrated the adaptability of the adult brain.

[00:25:32] Ken asks if these sorts of adaptations have been seen as beyond basic sensory modalities in higher cognitive functions.

[00:31:25] Dawn zooms out in our discussion and asks Tommy, given the falsehood of our previous understanding of the adult brain as being fixed, what exactly do we know about the brain.

[00:35:36] Dawn asks Tommy to talk about Santiago Ramón y Cajal, who is considered the first neuroscientist.

[00:38:41] Dawn mentions chapter two of Tommy’s book, “How do Neuroscientists Study the Brain,” in which Tommy explains the complexity of the brain, which is comprised of almost 100 billion neurons which compose nearly a quadrillion synapses. Given the complexity of the brain, Tommy notes in his book that even an organ as complex as the human brain is incapable of fully comprehending its own complexity. Dawn asks Tommy to talk about how he and his colleagues approach studying the brain.

[00:43:30] Ken notes the parallels between attempting to understand the function of the brain based on an understanding of its individual components to the process of trying to understand how a piece of software works on a computer by systematically studying the computer’s hardware. Ken goes on to start a discussion on the parallels between the brain as a self-referential system that is so complex it cannot even fully understand itself, to various paradoxes as well as Gödel’s theorem, while noting that such comparisons are a false equivalency, and the brain is not a formal system in the sense of mathematical proofs. Still, Ken notes, the parallels are interesting.

[00:47:07] Dawn asks Tommy about a humorous but insightful section in his book that illustrates the complexity of neurological research called “Can a Biologist Fix a Broken Radio.” Dawn asks Tommy to explain what this analogy is about.

[00:52:18] Dawn notes that the modern belief that the adult brain is fixed stems from work done by Cajal in the late 1800s where he claimed that after development the adult brain was no longer capable of regeneration or plasticity. Dawn asks Tommy to touch more on this.

[00:56:26] Ken explains that while people are likely familiar with neurons, as the basic building block of the nervous system, most people are less familiar with glial cells, which, until recently, were considered to play a minor role in the brain. However, Tommy in his book, argues that glial cells should be seen as just as important as neurons. Ken notes that within the neuroscience community there is a renewed interest in these cells.

[01:02:35] Dawn shifts the conversation to ask about the importance of cardiovascular health in brain health.

[01:06:35] Dawn explains that Tommy ends part one of his book by looking at what the brain is actually for, and to answer that question, he first explains that although the brain is capable of adaptation and change over a lifespan, it requires the right environment. To illustrate this, and the fact that dementia is not predetermined, Dawn asks Tommy about the indigenous Tsimané people of the Bolivian Amazon, who have some of the lowest rates of dementia in the world.

[01:08:27] Ken asks Tommy if it’s true that these people also have a lower prevalence of APOE 4/4 and 3/4 genotypes.

[01:11:26] Dawn asks, since one of the aims of Tommy’s book is to help people improve their cognitive function and reduce their risk for dementia, if he could give listeners a brief history of Alzheimer’s disease.

[01:17:07] Ken explains that general warnings that as we get better at treating various diseases and increasing lifespans, we will see an overwhelming number of people develop age-related dementia. Recent studies out of Europe, however, have shown the opposite trend, and that the likelihood of being diagnosed with dementia at the age of 70 is now lower than it was 20 years ago.

[01:22:43] Ken and Dawn close out part one of our interview with Tommy by explaining that in part two we will focus our discussion with Tommy on ways people can stimulate neuroplasticity in their adult brains. Ken asks Tommy to close out by briefly discussing the recipe for changing and improving the adult brain.

Links:

Tommy Wood bio

STEM-Talk episode 47 with Tommy Wood

STEM-Talk episode 110 with Tommy Wood

STEM-Talk episode 111 with Tommy Wood

STEM-Talk episode 128 with Tommy Wood

Learn more about IHMC

STEM-Talk homepage

Ken Ford bio

Ken Ford Wikipedia page

Dawn Kernagis bio

 

ChatGPT has been in the news a lot lately and, as a result, quite a few STEM-Talk listeners have tossed us questions about the reliability and limitations of generative-artificial intelligence chatbots as well as large-language models more broadly.  Ken and Dawn tackle this question and a number of others in today’s Ask Me Anything episode.

We have listeners wondering why astronauts train in underwater conditions for spacewalks; icebreakers in antarctica; the value of supplementing with urolithin-A; and the effectiveness of L-citrulline in helping aging blood vessels.

Ken also weights in on questions related to lithium deficiency and the onset of Alzheimer’s disease; a study that found mTOR activation may not be necessary for ketamine’s beneficial effects in the context of depression; and a paper that demonstrated short-term mTOR inhibition by rapamycin improved cardiac and endothelial function in older men.

Show notes:

[00:02:49] Ken opens our AMA with a listener question for Dawn, which asks why, despite the differences between diving and zero-gravity environments, why do astronauts train in underwater conditions for spacewalks. The listener goes on to mention an article they read about NASA’s neutral buoyancy lab in Houston, which contains a partial replica of the International Space Station.

[00:07:42] A listener asks Ken if he is still optimistic about the value of supplementing with urolithin-A, and if so, is there a brand he recommends. Ken mentions episodes 118, with Julie Anderson, and 173, with Anurag Singh. Ken also discusses a paper titled “Effect of the mitophagy inducer urolithin A on age related immune decline, a randomized placebo-controlled trial” co-authored by Anurag. Ken also mentions clinical research supporting the urolithin-A supplement Mitopure.

[00:10:53] A listener asks Ken about a paper titled “Short-term mTOR inhibition by rapamycin improves cardiac and endothelial function in older men: a proof-of-concept pilot study.”

[00:14:29] Ken discusses a 2020 paper from a research group at Yale, which suggested that mTOR activation may not be necessary for ketamine’s beneficial effects in the context of depression. The paper also reported that m-TOR suppression via rapamycin might prolong ketamine’s antidepressant effects.

[00:18:47] A research scientist formerly working in Antarctica asks Ken about Russia’s dominance in the realm of ice breakers.

[00:23:55] A listener mentions that for some people, when they used ChatGPT to ask about the assassination of political commentator Charlie Kirk, ChatGPT sometimes responded by denying the assassination occurred. The listener asks Ken about the credibility and reliability of generative AI and large-language models.

[00:28:49] Several listeners have submitted questions for Ken regarding a paper published in Nature in August of last year titled “Lithium deficiency in the onset of Alzheimer’s disease.” Ken gives his thoughts on this paper.

[00:31:56] For our final question this AMA, a listener asks Ken about the arginine paradox, which regards L-arginine, which is used by the body to make nitric oxide, which is necessary to relax and maintain flexibility of blood vessels. However, several papers have reported that supplementation of arginine does not reliably improve aging blood vessels. In contrast, recent research suggests that L-citrulline might be more effective. The listeners sent questions asking about the possible effects of citrulline in vascular health and aging.

In his answer, Ken cites the following papers:

— Administration of L-arginine plus L-citrulline or L-citrulline alone successfully retarded endothelial senescence.

— Effects of L-Citrulline Supplementation on Endothelial Function, Arterial Stiffness, and Blood Glucose Level in the Fasted and Acute Hyperglycemic States in Middle-Aged and Older Adults with Type 2 Diabetes.

— Citrulline Supplementation Improves Microvascular Function and Muscle Strength in Middle-Aged and Older Adults with Type 2 Diabetes.

— Effects of L-citrulline supplementation and watermelon intake on arterial stiffness and endothelial function in middle-aged and older adults: a systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials.

— Citrulline regulates macrophage metabolism and inflammation to counter aging in mice.

If you have questions for Ken and Dawn after listening to today’s episode or any episode of STEM-Talk, please email our producer, Randy Hammer, at [email protected].

 Links:

Learn more about IHMC

STEM-Talk homepage

Ken Ford bio

Ken Ford Wikipedia page

Dawn Kernagis bio

 

 

Today we have Dr. Francisco Gonzalez-Lima, a behavioral neuroscientist who was our guest in episodes 106 and 107 back in 2020.

Since those 2020 interviews, Francisco and his colleagues at the Gonzalez-Lima Lab have produced dozens of more studies and papers that have advanced their work on methylene blue, transcranial lasers, memory enhancement, neuroprotection and neurocognitive disorders.

Francisco and his lab at the University of Texas Austin are recognized as world leaders for their research on the relationships between brain energy metabolism, memory and neurobehavioral disorders.

In today’s interview, we talk to Francisco about his lab’s most recent research on the beneficial neurocognitive and emotional effects of noninvasive human brain stimulation in healthy, aging and mentally ill populations. This research primarily uses transcranial infrared laser stimulation and multimodal imaging, which we will discuss in today’s interview.

Be sure to check out our earlier interviews with Francisco where he talked aobut his work on brain metabolic mapping and Alzheimer’s, episode 106, and his research into methylene blue and near-infrared light as therapies for cognitive disorders, episode 107.

Show notes:

[00:04:32] Dawn and Ken open our interview with Francisco by mentioning that his lab has been very productive pursuing new research avenues since he was last on STEM-Talk. Ken mentions that Francisco has recently begun collaborating with his sister who has a PhD in computational and applied mathematics and asks Francisco to talk about the work they’re doing together.

[00:06:21] Dawn shifts to talk about the roadblocks that Francisco and his team have been dealing with, particularly that the review process for academic papers is unusually slow, not just for Francisco’s team but at large. Dawn asks Francisco to discuss this issue.

[00:10:37] Dawn recaps that in our previous interview with Francisco in 2020, the discussion focused on his research into methylene blue, which has been primarily used to treat methemoglobinemia, however, the potential for methylene blue to treat declining cognitive function is an active area of research. Despite Francisco’s successful work with methylene blue, he often gets asked about its safety, largely due to various misconceptions. Dawn asks Francisco to talk about the misconceptions about methylene blue.

[00:14:57] Ken asks if Francisco what some other misconceptions about methylene blue are.

[00:20:43] Given the discussion of dosing, Ken asks Francisco what the safe dose range is for methylene blue in humans.

[00:28:15] Ken mentions an article published a few months ago titled “Beyond plaques: How methylene blue and ketones address vascular hypometabolism in Alzheimer’s disease” Ken goes on to mention that the article did a good job of summarizing Francisco’s work as well as the work of Steve Cunnane, who was our guest on episode 59. Ken asks Francisco to discuss his thoughts on the article.

[00:34:25] Dawn shifts focus to discuss Francisco’s work on photobiomodulation, specifically transcranial infrared laser stimulation, which is a non-invasive method for neuroprotection and cognitive enhancement. Dawn explains that Francisco has written two chapters on this topic that summarizes his work in the area, one of which appeared in the Oxford handbook on transcranial stimulation, and the other is in a book on augmentation of brain function, based on a series of presentations he gave in Switzerland. Dawn asks Francisco to give a broad overview of his work on photobiomodulation and transcranial infrared laser stimulation.

[00:43:52] Ken asks Francisco to talk about a paper titled “Light buckets and laser beams” that he and other researchers composed after attending a photobiomodulation workshop convened in 2023 by the director of the National Institute on Aging and several NIH lab directors.

[00:51:25] Ken asks Francisco if there are any commercially available photobiomodulation devices that he thinks have substantial utility.

[00:56:27] Ken asks Francisco to discuss mitochondrial disfunction in the context of neurodegeneration and his work on targeted stimulation of the mitochondria with photo biomodulation.

[01:06:58] Ken asks Francisco to talk about the potential benefits of photobiomodulation on the aging process outside of neurodegenerative conditions.

[01:17:16] Dawn mentions that transcranial infrared stimulation stimulates prefrontal energy metabolism and oxygenation, which produces cognitive enhancing effects. Dawn goes on to ask Francisco about his recent paper exploring this phenomenon in the context of depression titled “Augmenting internet based cognitive behavioral therapy for major depressive disorder with transcranial infrared laser stimulation.”

[01:23:08] In light of the promising results of this study, Ken asks Francisco what he sees as the next research step to further this progress.

[01:30:15] Ken comments on how Francisco has not only had great accomplishments in his recent research but also has a lot of fruitful opportunities ahead.

[01:31:07] Ken asks Francisco if he has looked at photobiomodulation in combination with transcutaneous vagal nerve stimulation.

[01:34:28] Ken mentions that for listeners interested in learning more about vagal nerve stimulation they can listen to episodes 179 with JP Erico, and 172 with Kevin Tracey. Francisco discusses the difficulty in knowing whether to attribute effects of vagus nerve stimulation to stimulation of the vagus nerve itself or incidental stimulation of the carotid artery … or some combination.

[01:38:33] Ken mentions that Francisco is now trying to move away from animal studies and focus more on human studies. Ken asks what human trials he is hoping to conduct.

[01:42:27] Dawn closes our interview thanking Francisco for once again joining us on STEM-Talk.

Links:

Gonzalez-Lima Lab

Learn more about IHMC

STEM-Talk homepage

Ken Ford bio

Ken Ford Wikipedia page

Dawn Kernagis bio

 

 

Dr. Judith Curry, a climatologist known for her criticism of alarmist, doomsday rhetoric about climate change, returns to STEM-Talk for her second appearance.

Judy most recently was one of five researchers commissioned by the U.S. Department of Energy to draft a Climate Assessment Report summarizing the current state of climate science with a focus on how it relates to the United States. In this interview, Judy summarizes the climate report’s key points, including the finding that that carbon-dioxide induced warming of the planet appears to be less damaging economically than has been commonly believed. The report, which was released this past summer, also argues that aggressive mitigation strategies for carbon dioxide emissions could be more harmful than helpful.

Our interview comes on the heels of the prestigious journal Nature retracting a study that predicted climate change and carbon emissions would cause catastrophic economic damage by the end of the century.  Our conversation with Judy also followed an about-face from Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates, who wrote last fall that it’s time to tamp down the alarmist rhetoric that climate change will lead to humanity’s demise.

Curry is president of the Climate Forecast Application Network and host of the blog, Climate Etc, which you can find at JudyCurry.com.  Her blog provides  a forum for climate researchers, academics and technical experts from other fields as well as citizen scientists to discuss topics related to climate science and science policy.

Her research interests include hurricanes, remote sensing, atmospheric modeling, polar climates, air-sea interactions, climate models, and the use of unmanned aerial vehicles for atmospheric research. She has published more than 100 scientific papers and is the author of “Climate Change and Uncertainty: Rethinking Our Response,” a book that provides a framework for understanding and rethinking the climate-change debate.

 Show notes:

[00:03:59] Ken opens the interview explaining that Judy was one of the five authors of a climate assessment report commissioned by the U.S. Department of Energy. Before diving into the key findings of the report and the response it has received, Ken asks Judy to explain how she became one of the five authors.

[00:06:21] Ken mentions that critics of the climate working group have accused the authors of being hand-picked skeptics of the effects of climate change. Judy argues that she and her co-authors are scientists determined to get the science right. Ken asks Judy to talk about her co-authors and the working relationship of the group.

[00:09:18] Ken asks Judy to talk about how she and her co-authors came to their key finding that the economic impacts of climate change are less severe than typically thought.

[00:13:08] Ken asks Judy to provide examples that demonstrate how climate mitigation strategies can be more harmful than helpful.

[00:16:08] Ken follows up by asking about the report’s proposal to shift climate science from alarmism to focus more on a better understanding of natural climate variability.

[00:18:14] Ken asks Judy what her thoughts are on the next steps that should be taken for a better understanding climate variability.

[00:20:06] Ken asks Judy to elaborate on the findings of chapter six of the report regarding global warming and extreme weather events. In particular, Ken asks about the problems with associating specific extreme weather events like hurricanes to climate change, and the issues created by the short historical records we have at our disposal.

[00:24:20] Ken asks Judy to talk about chapter nine of the report, which is about the need to focus on reducing vulnerabilities in our infrastructure instead of mitigating carbon emissions.

[00:28:43] Ken asks Judy to comment on the accusations that she is a “climate change denier.”

[00:31:18] Ken asks Judy to talk about a paper she co-authored with her colleague Dr. Harry DeAngelo titled “A critique of apocalyptic climate narrative.”

[00:36:27] Ken brings up Bill Gates’ recent about-face on climate change and the need to pivot away from doomsday views of cataclysmic climate disasters. Ken asks Judy to elaborate on what she has dubbed “climate alarmism fatigue.”

[00:39:32] Ken asks Judy to give her thoughts on the issue of sea level rise, particularly in light of the pushback that the DOE report faced on this topic. He also asks her to discuss the recent paper that was released after the DOE report titled “A global perspective on local sea level changes” which proports that there is no statistically significant acceleration of the rate of sea level rise for 98% of the suitable global locations.

[00:50:47] Ken points listeners to Judy’s blog, Judycurry.com, where she discusses many of these same issues. Ken goes on to explain that his perspective as well as Judy’s perspective is that climate change has become a scapegoat for many issues. He asks Judy to talk about this phenomenon.

[00:55:24] Ken asks Judy what she would like to see in terms of follow-up research to the DOE climate report.

[01:00:23] Ken asks Judy about her book “Climate Uncertainty and Risk.”

Links:

Judith Curry bio

Learn more about IHMC

STEM-Talk homepage

Ken Ford bio

Ken Ford Wikipedia page

 

 

Today’s episode of STEM-Talk features a timely and wide-ranging discussion with Drs. Michael Griffin and Lisa Porter about NASA’s plans to return humans to the Moon, the history of lunar missions, and how China’s advances in space technology pose a serious threat to U.S. national security.

IHMC founder and CEO Emeritus Ken Ford’s interview with Griffin and Porter came 10 days before Griffin appeared before the U.S. House Committee on Science, Space and Technology to give testimony on China’s advancements in space and the risks it poses for the United States.

“We have squandered a 60-year head start on pioneering the space frontier to a nation that, without reason or provocation on our part, has chosen to become our nation’s adversary,” said Griffin in his opening comments to Congress.

In this episode, Griffin and Porter explain why it is critical for the U.S. to return to the Moon before China. They also argue that NASA’s Artemis III mission to return to the lunar surface and establish a permanent base on the Moon is seriously flawed and should be scrapped.

Griffin and Porter are co-founders and co-presidents of LogiQ Inc., a company providing high-end management, scientific and technical consulting services.

Griffin’s background includes roles as the former Undersecretary of Defense for Research and Engineering, the Administrator of NASA, the Space Department Head at the John Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory as well as Chairman and CEO of Schafer Corporation.

Porter’s background includes roles as the former Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Research and Engineering, the founding Director of the Intelligence Advanced Research Projects Activity (IARPA) in the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, and the Associate Administrator for Aeronautics at NASA.

Show notes:

[00:04:44] Ken opens the interview by welcoming Mike back to STEM-Talk, who was a guest on Episodes 23 and 134. He also welcomes Lisa to her first appearance on STEM-Talk and asks her to talk about her decision to major in nuclear engineering at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

[00:08:50] Ken asks Lisa why she went to Stanford for a Ph.D. in physics.

[00:10:43] Ken explains that Lisa was the founding director of the Intelligence Advanced Research Projects Activity (IARPA), a department within the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. Ken asks about some of the challenges the American intelligence community faced that she addressed as director of IARPA.

[00:16:15] Ken asks about Lisa’s time working for Mike as Associate Administrator for Aeronautics at NASA, and how she came to accept that role.

[00:18:07] Ken explains that when Mike became Undersecretary for Defense for Research and Engineering in 2018, he invited Lisa to become the Deputy Undersecretary for Defense for Research and Engineering. Ken asks Mike why Lisa was ideal for that role.

[00:21:07] Ken explains that Mike and Lisa are working together again as co-founders and co-presidents of LogiQ Inc., a company that provides scientific consulting services. Ken asks Mike to give a brief overview of LogiQ’s work.

[00:24:44] Ken shifts the discussion to space exploration, noting that he wants to talk about Mike’s 2024 congressional testimony on returning to the Moon, and a paper that he and Lisa published titled “A system architecture for human lunar return.” To begin the discussion, Ken asks why it is so important for us to return to the Moon.

[00:29:11] Ken asks Mike and Lisa to explain why it is important for the US to be the first to return to the Moon in the context of China’s ambition to send humans to the Moon and establish a permanent lunar presence.

[00:33:24] Ken asks Mike and Lisa if they see the cancellation of the Apollo program as a mistake.

[00:35:36] Ken asks Mike and Lisa to give an overview of the Artemis program.

[00:41:45] Ken mentions the centrality of the Gateway in the Artemis plan, and the problem with making something that is already hard even harder for no good reason.

[00:43:28] Ken mentions his concern that the focus on a Mars-forward approach might impede our success with the current Moon missions.

[00:46:40] In Mike and Lisa’s aforementioned paper, they propose a dual-launch lunar landing architecture, which is simpler than the current NASA architecture and presents lower risks to the crew. Ken asks Mike and Lisa to elaborate on this idea.

[00:48:41] Ken asks Mike and Lisa what they think are some of the other technical and programmatic problems with the current Artemis plan.

[00:52:31] Ken asks Mike and Lisa what NASA’s response has been, as well as the response of others in the human space flight community, to their paper and recommendations for the Artemis mission architecture.

[00:54:25] Ken explains that Sean Duffy, the Secretary of Transportation and acting NASA administrator, has opened the door to some additional lander ideas in light of concerns that the two current contractors, Space X and Blue Origin, may not be ready in time for the current Artemis schedule. Ken asks if Lisa and Mike think this is a good idea or if they think it would further complicate matters.

[00:59:25] NASA’s current budget is around $24.9 billion dollars, approximately 0.4 percent of total federal spending. Ken notes at a time when China is increasing their investment in their space programs and launching several missions, NASA is facing a proposal to cut its funding by 24 percent to $18.8 billion. Ken asks Mike and Lisa for their thoughts on this.

[01:03:13] Ken and Lisa continue Mike’s discussion on the core purpose of NASA beyond science.

[01:08:55] Ken and Mike reflect on Ken’s observation that the U.S. is not as serious about space and the Moon as it was during the Apollo years, years that attracted the nation’s best and brightest.

[01:09:39] Ken asks Mike and Lisa their thoughts on the way that NASA is contracting more services in the development of Artemis, rather than funding a development program.

[01:15:55] Ken wraps up the interview by commenting that he believes listeners will very much enjoy today’s conversation.

Links:

Michael Griffin bio

Griffin’s Dec. 4 2025 Congressional testimony

Griffin’s 2024 Congressional testimony

Lida Porter bio

Ken Ford bio

Ken Ford Wikipedia page

Learn more about IHMC

STEM-Talk homepage