ChinaTalk

Bryan Clark (former submariner at Hudson), Eric Robinson, and Justin McIntosh report for duty.

Davos disco: https://suno.com/s/2SpR62beigk2JeDr
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Is there such a thing as MAD in economic warfare? How should we measure the effectiveness of our industrial policy tools, and what outcomes should we be aiming for anyway?

Our guest today is Dan Kim, who served at USITC with stints at Qualcomm and SK hynix before returning to government as the Chief Economist for the CHIPS Program Office. He recently joined TechInsights as Chief Strategy Officer. Also joining us is Chris Miller of Chip War fame. 

We discuss:


What $39 billion can and can’t buy — why the CHIPS Act was never meant to de-risk the U.S. from China or Taiwan, and what “success” looks like when autarky is neither affordable nor desirable,


Apple vs. Xiaomi + BYD — invention versus fast-following as competing models of national power, and which system performs better when the goal shifts from profit maximization to geopolitical resilience,


What resilience actually means — capability vs. capacity, weakest links, and whether economic security should be measured as “time to recovery” rather than self-sufficiency,


Managed dependence vs. overreliance, and whether dependence itself can be a form of power,

Why the U.S. still lacks a clear theory, metrics, and institutional design for industrial strategy — and what you can do about it.

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Jon Czin spent years as a top China analyst at the CIA, served as China Director on Biden’s National Security Council, and now works at the Brookings Institution. We talk through:

Xi, Trump, and what drove the roller coaster of US-China relations in 2025

Why it feels too quiet right now and what could get this train off the rails in 2026

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The U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission late last year released ⁠its annual report to Congress⁠. ChinaTalk welcomes two commissioners to the pod to discuss.

Before joining the Hoover Institution, ⁠Mike Kuiken⁠ spent two decades on the Hill with Senators Schumer and Durbin. He was appointed to the commission by Leader Schumer. ⁠Leland Miller⁠, the co-founder and CEO of ⁠China Beige Book⁠, was appointed by Speaker Mike Johnson.

We get into…


What the U.S.-China Commission does, and why “alligators closest to the boat” explains Congress’s blind spots,


The case for an economic statecraft agency, and reorganization lessons from post-9/11 sanctions reform,


The year supply chains became sexy — and the best-case scenario for responding to chokepoints like rare earths and pharmaceuticals,


Xi’s unresponsiveness to consumer spending concerns, and the military-tech developments he’s targeting instead,


The quantum software gap, synthetic biology in space, and Congress’s role in competing with China.

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Richard Danzig, national treasure, joins the podcast to discuss the national security implications of AI in the cyber context.

Do note we conducted this interview in July of 2025.

We discuss Richard's excellent paper on AI and cyber you can find here: https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PEA4079-1.html

Teddy Collins cohosts. Thanks to Hudson for sponsoring this episode.
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