Psychologists Off the Clock

If you struggle with people-pleasing and losing yourself in relationships, this episode with Ingrid Clayton, a licensed clinical psychologist and expert in relational trauma, about her book Fawning: Why the Need to Please Makes Us Lose Ourselves and How to Find Our Way Back, is a conversation that can help you understand and transform patterns holding you back.
Exploring fawning, which is a lesser-known trauma response shaped by caretaking, appeasement, and self-abandonment, you’ll learn how it often shows up as anxiety and hypervigilance.
And, through personal and client stories, you’ll gain insights on reclaiming authenticity, navigating backlash, and starting the process of “unfawning.”

Listen and Learn:
Why do some people cope with relational trauma by becoming overly accommodating or pleasing?
How people-pleasing might actually be your nervous system choosing safety in ways that once protected you, but could now be quietly shaping your identity and relationships without you realizing it, and what it actually takes to reconnect with who you are
How chronic fawning can look like emotional strength on the outside while quietly disconnecting you from your own anxiety and body
How what looks like dishonesty can actually be a survival response that once kept you safe, and what it takes to notice when it starts keeping you stuck
How tuning into what you notice in your body can be the first uncomfortable but powerful step to breaking people-pleasing patterns and building more authentic relationships
Why red flags can feel like home after emotional abuse and how learning to trust your own resentment might be the first step toward building a truly safe relationship

Resources:
Fawning: Why the Need to Please Makes Us Lose Ourselves and How to Find Our Way Back https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9798217045327
Ingrid’s Website: https://www.ingridclayton.com/
Connect with Ingrid on Social Media:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ingridclaytonphd
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/IngridClaytonPhD
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ingridclaytonphd/
Substack: https://substack.com/@ingridclaytonphd
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3PvWTgJMirURfgHWj3h28g

About Ingrid Clayton
Dr. Ingrid Clayton is a licensed clinical psychologist with a master’s in transpersonal psychology and a Ph.D. in clinical psychology. She’s had a thriving private practice for more than sixteen years and is a regular contributor to Psychology Today, where her blog “Emotional Sobriety” has had more than a million views. She lives in Los Angeles, California.
Book: Fawning: Why the Need to Please Makes Us Lose Ourselves--and How to Find Our Way Back: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9798217045327

Related Episodes:
305. The Power of Saying No with Vanessa Patrick
186. Set Boundaries Find Peace with Nedra Tawwab
276. Assertive Communication Skills with Randy Paterson
308. Identifying and Surviving Gaslighting with Robin Stern
263. Relationships with Emotionally Immature People with Lindsay Gibson
383. What My Bones Know: C-PTSD with Stephanie Foo
417. Busting Trauma Treatment Myths with Emi Nietfeld
416. Trauma and PTSD Treatment with Robyn Walser

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Behind the scenes of everyday family life is a mental workload many of us carry without even realizing it, and that’s exactly what Debbie Sorensen explores in her interview with sociologist Allison Daminger about her book, What's on Her Mind: The Mental Workload of Family Life.

Allison defines cognitive labor as the invisible work of managing family needs and obligations, and walks us through its importance for individual well-being and relationship satisfaction.

The discussion also touches on how these tasks are often unrecognized in statistics, the gender dynamics in cognitive labor, and the implications for families and workplaces.

You’ll also get a look at insights from her research involving both different-sex and same-sex couples, and she suggests ways to address gender imbalances through individual, cultural, and systemic changes.

Listen and Learn:
How cognitive household labor silently shapes family life
How mental load secretly drains energy in daily life and why the invisible tasks of keeping a household running can be more exhausting than anyone realizes
Why the small, everyday decisions parents make reveal hidden patterns in family life that most people never notice
Why women often carry the mental load at home even when they out-earn or out-work their partners
How couples explain unequal household labor reveals that what seems like personality differences is actually shaped by deeply ingrained social and cultural expectations around gender
The surprising ways “superhuman” and “bumbler” roles shape relationships and what small changes can help partners share the load more freely
Insights from same-sex couples on sharing mental load and the lessons they offer for balancing household responsibilities

Resources:
What's on Her Mind: The Mental Workload of Family Life https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780691245386
Allison’s Website: https://www.allisondaminger.com/
Allison’s Substack: https://allisondaminger.substack.com/
Connect with Allison on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/allisondaminger/

About Allison Daminger
Allison Daminger is an assistant professor of sociology at UW-Madison and the author of the new book What's on Her Mind: The Mental Workload of Family Life. Daminger's research is focused on how and why gender shapes family dynamics, particularly the division of work and power in couples. Her award-winning scholarship has been published in top academic journals and featured in outlets including The Atlantic, The New York Times, and Psychology Today. Daminger holds a Ph.D. in Sociology and Social Policy from Harvard University and lives with her family in Madison, Wisconsin.

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176. Fair Play with Eve Rodsky
206. Fair Play Part 2 with Eve Rodsky
275. Work, Parent, Thrive with Yael Schonbrun
386. Parents Are Stressed: What Do We Do About It? with Emily, Debbie, and our dear friend Yael Schonbrun
306. Screaming on the Inside: The Challenges of American Motherhood with Jessica Grose
146. Parental Burnout with Lisa Coyne
441. Having It All with Corinne Low
137. The Complexities of Motherhood with Daphne de Marneffe
104. You’re Doing It Wrong with Bethany Johnson and Margaret Quinlan
33. Couples with Young Children: Relationship Challenges and Strategies with Yael Schonbrun


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Caregiving is often framed as a burden, but what if it’s also one of the most meaningful ways we come to know ourselves?
Emily sits down with acclaimed journalist and cultural critic Elissa Strauss for this episode to discuss her extensive work on the politics and culture of parenting and caregiving, which has appeared in publications like The Atlantic and The New York Times.
Centering on her new book, When You Care: The Unexpected Magic of Caring for Others, they challenge feminist notions that have undervalued caregiving and explore how caregiving can enrich one's sense of self.
You’ll hear about the philosophical foundations of care ethics and how caregiving for various dependents, not just children, brings profound personal growth, scientific research on caregiver well-being, the importance of male caregivers, and also the need for systemic support for caregivers.

Listen and Learn:
How redefining caregiving, not as a burden, but as a powerful source of meaning and self-expansion, might change what we think feminism, motherhood, and what a “full” life actually look like
How caregiving across parenting, disability, and aging becomes an intense, surprising mirror that reshapes identity and meaning in ways most of us never expect
The research that shows why caregiving doesn’t have to wear you down, and under certain conditions, it can actually make you healthier and even help you live longer
How one husband turned the challenges of caregiving into moments of quiet activism, love, and connection
How does caring for others bring meaning, even when day-to-day life feels messy?
What if the real barrier for working caregivers isn’t just the glass ceiling but the glass door separating home and work, and how breaking it could change everything we value about care?
Why men’s brains change when they care for others, how caregiving reshapes masculinity, and what it really means for dads today
Why caring for those closest to us isn’t just personal—it’s a radical philosophical lens that could change how we think about society itself

Resources:
When You Care: The Unexpected Magic of Caring for Others https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9781982169282
Elisa’s Website: https://www.elissastrauss.com/
Elisa’s Substack: https://elissa.substack.com/
Connect with Elisa on Social Media:
https://www.facebook.com/elissa.strauss.7/
https://www.instagram.com/elissaavery/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/elissa-strauss-742720112

About Elissa Strauss
Elissa Strauss is a journalist, essayist, and cultural critic who has been writing about the politics and culture of parenting and caregiving for more than fifteen years. Her work appears in publications like the Atlantic, the New York Times, Glamour, ELLE, and elsewhere, and she was a former contributing writer at CNN.com and Slate. Her book, "When You Care: The Unexpected Magic of Caring for Others," is out now from Gallery Books, and she writes a Substack called "MADE WITH CARE."

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441. Having It All with Corinne Low
386. Parents Are Stressed: What Do We Do About It? With Emily, Debbie, and Yael
356. Navigating the Challenges of Caregiving with Alison Applebaum
354. A Family Guide to Dementia with Brent Forester
275. Work, Parent, Thrive with Yael Schonbrun

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In a world that’s more connected than ever yet feels increasingly lonely, award-winning journalist Jennifer B. Wallace explores why the simple human need to matter may be the most powerful force shaping our well-being.

Joining Yael to discuss her new book, Mattering: The Secret to a Life of Deep Connection and Purpose, Jennifer underscores the crucial role of mattering in fostering resilience and well-being, emphasizing its importance in both personal and professional contexts. You’ll gain practical ways to cultivate a sense of mattering, learn about the importance of attunement in relationships, and understand the significance of social contexts in mental health.

She also reflects on the impact of technology on our social connections and the valuable lessons learned from her research on creating ecosystems that support mattering.

Listen and Learn:
The discovery that shifted Jennifer’s entire research focus and why the real key to kids’ resilience may actually lie in how adults experience purpose, value, and “mattering” in their own lives
Why “mattering” goes beyond belonging or purpose and how feeling both valued and impactful may be the hidden factor that determines whether people truly engage or quietly burn out
How a simple moment of everyday rudeness can quietly undermine our sense of mattering, and why understanding that reaction can completely change how you interpret (and respond to) those interactions
How a lesson learned from Jennifer’s father about making people feel like they matter shaped their entire life
Why feeling like you “matter” isn’t something you can fix alone, and how small, often uncomfortable moments of connection, dependence, and even friction are actually where real healing and meaning are built
Why do some people never seem to feel that they matter, even when the evidence is right in front of them, and what actually helps (and doesn’t) when you’re trying to show someone they do?
How attunement can transform everyday interactions and make people feel deeply seen, valued, and connected

Resources:
Mattering: The Secret to a Life of Deep Connection and Purpose by Jennifer B. Wallace: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780593850596
Never Enough: When Achievement Culture Becomes Toxic-and What We Can Do About It by Jennifer B. Wallace: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780593191866
Jennifer’s Website: https://www.jenniferbwallace.com/
Connect with Jennifer on Social Media:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-b-wallace/
https://www.instagram.com/jenniferbrehenywallace
Yael’s newsletter on “phubbing” with Jaqueline Nesi: https://relationalriffs.substack.com/p/are-you-phubbing-your-partner
Empathy Diaries by Sherry Turkle: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780525560111
Power of Discord by Ed Tronick and Claudia Goldstein: https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-power-of-discord-why-the-ups-and-downs-of-relationships-are-the-secret-to-building-intimacy-resilience-and-trust-claudia-m-gold-md/f91287b2b45f7311?ean=9780316488877&next=t

About Jennifer B Wallace
Jennifer Breheny Wallace is an award-winning journalist and author of the New York Times bestselling book Never Enough: When Achievement Culture Becomes Toxic—And What We Can Do About It, which was named an Amazon Best Book of the Year, and for which she joined us on POTC episode 324. She's also the founder of The Mattering Institute, whose mission is to create cultures of mattering in workplaces and communities, and co-founder of The Mattering Movement, a nonprofit dedicated to creating cultures of mattering in schools. Jennifer started her journalism career at CBS's 60 Minutes. She's contributed to The Wall Street Journal and The Washington Post, and she's here today to talk about her forthcoming book Mattering: The Secret to a Life of Deep Connection and Purpose.

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179. How to be an Adult in Relationships with Dave Richo
263. Relationships with Emotionally Immature People with Lindsay Gibson
324. Toxic Achievement Culture with Jennifer Wallace

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We all feel emotions every day, but how often do we stop to understand what they really are and how they work?
Joining Michael for this episode is Ethan Kross, a renowned authority on emotion regulation and author of Shift: Managing Your Emotions—So They Don’t Manage You, for a conversation about the science behind how our internal dialogue affects health, performance, and relationships.
Ethan explains what emotions are, how they function, and the importance of teaching emotional regulation skills from a young age.
He also covers various tools and strategies that can help you manage your emotions more effectively, shares examples from his books, and highlights significant studies.

Listen and Learn:
Why we have emotions and how they quietly shape our thoughts, bodies, and actions in ways most of us don’t fully notice
Why meaningful moments almost always come with emotional friction, and what that reveals about living a purposeful life
The 50-year study that shows how early emotion skills shape health, money, and relationships
What happens when logic is pushed too far, and emotions are removed, and how science suggests a more balanced approach that quietly shapes better outcomes in work, relationships, and life
Why managing emotions isn’t about suppressing them, but learning how you can use the right tools at the right time to keep them working for you instead of against you
Simple mental shifts that help you move through discomfort and emotional blocks faster

Resources:
Shift: Managing Your Emotions--So They Don't Manage You https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780593444412
Ethan’s Website: https://www.ethankross.com/
Emotion & Self Control Laboratory: http://selfcontrol.psych.lsa.umich.edu/
Connect with Ethan on Social Media:
https://www.instagram.com/ethankross/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ekross/

About Ethan Kross
Ethan Kross is one of the world’s leading experts on emotion regulation. An award-winning professor and bestselling author in the University of Michigan’s top- ranked Psychology Department and its Ross School of Business, he studies how the conversations people have with themselves impact their health, performance, decisions, and relationships.
Ethan was born and raised in Brooklyn, New York. He attended the University of Pennsylvania, where he was elected to Phi Beta Kappa and graduated magna cum laude. After earning his PhD in Psychology from Columbia University, Ethan completed a post-doctoral fellowship in social-affective neuroscience to learn about the neural systems that support self-control. He moved to the University of Michigan in 2008, where he founded the Emotion & Self Control Laboratory.
Ethan’s research has been published in Science, The New England Journal of Medicine, and The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, among other peer-reviewed journals. He has participated in policy discussion at the White House and has been interviewed on CBS Evening News, Good Morning America, Anderson Cooper Full Circle, and NPR’s Morning Edition. His pioneering research has been featured in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The New Yorker, Harvard Business Review, USA Today, The Economist, The Atlantic, Forbes, and Time.
Ethan is the two-time National Bestselling author of SHIFT: Managing Your Emotions—So They Don’t Manage You and CHATTER: The Voice in Our Head, Why it Matters and How to Harness It. His books are routinely featured in the worlds’ top media (e.g., New York Times, Wall Street Journal, BBC, The New Yorker), have garnered multiple accolades and been translated into over 40 languages.

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265. The Power of Emotions at Work with Karla McLaren
183. Permission to Feel: Emotional Intelligence with Marc Brackett

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