Psychologists Off the Clock

We’ve been taught that pain always means something is broken, but it’s often just a "stuck" danger signal in the brain.
To show us how to turn that signal off, Jill Stoddard talks with Alan Gordon, the founder of the Pain Psychology Center and author of The Way Out. Drawing on his own recovery from chronic pain, Alan explains how fear and conditioning keep us hurting even after we've healed.
Through fascinating stories like the "construction worker" case and MRI surprise, they dive into the science of neuroplastic pain and the tools you can use to retrain your nervous system, build stress tolerance, and finally feel safe in your own body again.

Listen and Learn:
Alan’s personal frustration with navigating a broken medical system and how that led to the discovery of a groundbreaking mind-body approach that offers lasting relief for chronic pain
How your brain can misinterpret emotional stress or past memories as physical danger to create real, persistent pain even after an injury has fully healed
The specific clues that can reveal whether your chronic physical pain is actually coming from your brain, and how to break the cycle of fear that keeps symptoms alive
The reason why traditional recovery methods can fail when we ignore our internal state, and how "backward engineering" your physical tension can signal to your brain that the danger has passed
Why the clinical evolution of Pain Reprocessing Therapy shifted from exploring unconscious emotions to targeting the brain's internal danger signals, and how modern neuroscience identifies the hidden driver keeping your physical symptoms alive
Why somatic tracking outperforms traditional mindfulness

Resources:
The Way Out: A Revolutionary, Scientifically Proven Approach to Healing Chronic Pain https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780593086858
Pain Psychology Center Website: https://painpsychologycenter.com/
Follow the Pain Psychology Center on Social Media:
https://instagram.com/thepainpsychologycenter
https://www.facebook.com/painpsychologycenter
Tell Me About Your Pain - Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tell-me-about-your-pain/id1503847664
The Pain Reprocessing Therapy Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pain-reprocessing-therapy-podcast/id1785564399
TEDxAdelaide - Lorimer Moseley - Why Things Hurt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwd-wLdIHjs

About Alan Gordon
Alan Gordon is the creator of Pain Reprocessing Therapy (PRT) and founder of the Pain Psychology Center. He developed PRT through years of clinical practice and research, and its efficacy has been validated in randomized controlled trials published in JAMA Psychiatry. He is the author of The Way Out: A Revolutionary, Scientifically Proven Approach to Healing Chronic Pain.

Related Episodes:
39. Chronic Pain with Adrianne Sloan
75. Mindful Self-Compassion with Christopher Germer
114. Way of Effortless Mindfulness with Loch Kelly
155. Mindfulness and Recovery with Rebecca Williams
177. Mind-Body Practices for Stress and Overwhelm with Rebekkah LaDyne
201. Fierce Compassion with Kristin Neff
336. Mindfulness and Living Expansively with Sharon Salzberg
364. The Brain-Gut Connection with Megan Riehl

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What if success isn’t about grinding toward big goals but about following curiosity through small, imperfect experiments that lead somewhere better?

On Psychologist Off the Clock, award-winning neuroscientist and entrepreneur Anne-Laure Le Cunff, founder of Nest Labs and author of Tiny Experiments, shares how a health scare while working at Google helped her shift from rigid, linear goals to an experimental mindset rooted in curiosity.

You’ll hear about common “cognitive scripts” (the sequel, crowd pleaser, and epic scripts), how to design tiny experiments to test beliefs without framing outcomes as failure, and how to reframe success as learning.

The conversation also covers “surface area for luck,” the difference between legacy and generativity, and ends with reflections on goals, values, and meaningful community support.

Listen and Learn:
How Anne-Laure’s career was fueled by imposter syndrome, and led to a life-threatening wake-up call that pushed her to rethink priorities and embrace a more experimental, balanced path
Why rigid, linear goals only work when everything is certain, and why it’s more effective to replace them with curiosity and experimentation
Why many of your goals come from hidden “cognitive scripts,” and by questioning them, you can move from autopilot to intentional choices
Doing “tiny experiments” and observing results without judgment before deciding what to adjust or repeat
Why instead of treating outcomes as success or failure, you should approach situations like small experiments, where everything that happens, especially mistakes, is just useful data for learning and adjusting
The “Surface area for luck” and why the more you try new things, meet people, and put yourself in different situations, the more you increase the chances of unexpected good opportunities happening in your life
Focusing on making a real-time, meaningful impact on people and communities around us through everyday acts of care and mutual support

Resources:
Tiny Experiments: How to Live Freely in a Goal-Obsessed World https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780593715130
Anne-Laure’s Website: https://anne-laure.net/
Tiny Experiments: https://tinyexperiments.org/
Connect with Anne-Laure on Instagram https://instagram.com/neuranne
Ness Labs Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ness_labs/?hl=en
Ness Labs X: https://x.com/ness_labs
Ness Labs Website: https://nesslabs.com/
Michael’s Confidence Course: Remain Calm. Confidence Ahead http://herold.coach/course

About Anne-Laure Le Cunff
Anne-Laure Le Cunff is an award-winning neuroscientist and entrepreneur. She is the founder of Ness Labs, where her weekly newsletter is read by more than 100,000 curious minds. Her research at King’s College London focuses on the psychology and neuroscience of lifelong learning, curiosity, and adaptability. Her book, Tiny Experiments, is a transformative guide for living a more experimental life, turning uncertainty into curiosity, and carving a path of self-discovery. Previously, she worked at Google as an executive on digital health projects. Her work has been featured in Rolling Stone, Forbes, Financial Times, WIRED, and more.

Related Episodes:
349. The Hunger Habit with Judson Brewer
351. You Only Die Once with Jodi Wellman
454. Remain Calm. Confidence Ahead with Michael Herold

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Being absolutely sure you’re right should settle an argument, but somehow, it often does the opposite. Instead, things escalate, tensions rise, and before you know it, the conflict has taken on a life of its own.
For this episode, Yael welcomes New York Times bestselling author, trained mediator, and Good Conflict co-founder Amanda Ripley to unpack her book  High Conflict: Why We Get Trapped, and How We Get Out, and the difference between “good conflict” that strengthens us and “high conflict” that feeds on contempt, disgust, and rigid us-versus-them thinking.
You’ll hear why high conflict makes us more error-prone while feeling more righteous, how group belonging and media incentives can keep the cycle going, and practical ways to interrupt the pattern like Gary Freeman’s three-question pause before speaking.
Listen to learn how to stay in the fight without losing nuance, curiosity, or yourself.

Listen and Learn:
The distinction between healthy conflict that helps you grow and the kind that quietly turns destructive in ways you may not notice
Why conflicts can quietly take over our thinking, shifting us into an us-versus-them mindset
Why do we get pulled into conflicts that drain us even when we know the cost, and what keeps us hooked?
How can even people deeply engaged with information find themselves pulling away from conflict, and what does that reveal about the hidden dynamics of high conflict
How you can recognize the early signs of high conflict and shift toward more productive, healthier conversations before things escalate

Resources:
High Conflict: Why We Get Trapped, and How We Get Out: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9781982128579
Amanda’s Website: https://www.amandaripley.com/
Good Conflict Website: https://www.thegoodconflict.com
Connect with Amanda on Social Media:
https://www.facebook.com/amanda.ripley.35/
https://www.instagram.com/ripleywriter/
Amada’s Substack: https://amandaripley.substack.com/
Amanda’s article about high-conflict journalism, I stopped reading the news. Is the problem me–or the product?
Yael’s Substack post about how journalists quickly build connection
Builders Movement: an Instagram feed and website that offers “inspiration, tools, and ways to take action to rise above us vs. them and solve our toughest problems together.”

About Amanda Ripley:
Amanda Ripley is a New York Times bestselling author, magazine journalist, and co-founder of Good Conflict, a media and training company helping people reimagine how we fight. She has written three award-winning nonfiction books — The Unthinkable, The Smartest Kids in the World, and High Conflict — each following people through transformations to uncover what the rest of us can learn. Her most recent book, High Conflict, chronicles how good conflict metastasizes into something that consumes everything in its path — and, crucially, how people find their way out. A trained mediator herself, Amanda's work reveals that escape from high conflict isn't about being nicer; it's about learning to genuinely comprehend what you still disagree with. Her writing has appeared in the Atlantic, the Washington Post, and Politico Magazine, among others.

Related Episodes:
234. The Power of Us with Dominic Packer
371. Uniting Toward a Better Future with Diana McLain Smith
392. Outraged with Kurt Gray
408. Connecting Like a Hostage Negotiator with Gary Noesner
452. How to Disagree Better with Julia Minson

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If your teen is getting caught in cycles of comparison, burnout, or avoidance while trying to “do enough” for college, this conversation offers a different perspective.

Emily talks with Ana Homayoun about her book Erasing the Finish Line and what really matters beyond grades, test scores, and prestige.

They walk you through unhealthy patterns in college admissions culture, how technology amplifies anxiety, and why most institutions actually accept the majority of applicants. Their conversation also reveals how long-term success depends far more on relationships and meaningful engagement than on brand-name schools.

Join Emily and Ana for practical strategies to help your teens build executive functioning systems, shift from time management to energy management, strengthen social capital through supporters and clarifiers, and rethink grind culture, including the role of youth sports.

Listen and Learn:
Focusing less on comparison and more on building your own strengths and systems for shaping both college outcomes and the kind of work you end up loving later
How parents’ own fears and need for control shape the college process can undermine a student’s fit and well-being, and what it takes to step back so they can truly thrive
How technology has reshaped college admissions in ways that make independent research, real-world exploration, and staying open-minded more important than ever for finding the right fit
Why the most “competitive” colleges may feel that way by design, and how choosing the right environment and relationships over prestige can shape your future more than you expect
Focusing on executive functioning skills to shape your teen’s long-term success in ways grades alone never reveal
Making small shifts in structure, mindset, and environment to unlock a child’s ability to plan, adapt, and thrive without pressure or perfection
How having friendships across different age groups quietly builds confidence, perspective, and real connection in ways most students do not expect
Sharing and building social capital in small, everyday ways to quietly shape opportunities for teens and create unexpected outcomes
Giving kids real choices, a safe space to fail, and multiple places to belong to builds the confidence, motivation, and life skills they carry into adulthood
How shifting from managing time to managing your energy transforms focus, behavior, and motivation

Resources:
Erasing the Finish Line: The New Blueprint for Success Beyond Grades and College Admission https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780306830693
That Crumpled Paper Was Due Last Week: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780399535598
Ana’s Website: https://anahomayoun.com/
Connect with Ana on Social Media:
https://instagram.com/anahomayoun
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ana-homayoun-4783863/)

About Ana Homayoun:
ANA HOMAYOUN is the founder of Silicon Valley–based Green Ivy Educational Consulting and executive director of Luminaria Learning Solutions, which develops student programs focused on executive functioning and well-being. She is also the author of That Crumpled Paper Was Due Last Week, The Myth of the Perfect Girl, and Social Media Wellness. Her work has been featured in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Atlantic, Fast Company, and NPR and on Good Morning America and NBC News. Learn more about her work at www.anahomayoun.com. Her most recent book, Erasing the Finish Line, comes out in paperback on June 9th with the updated title, Getting in Is Not Enough: The New Blueprint for Success Beyond Grades, Test Scores, and College Admission.

Related Episodes:
324. Toxic Achievement Culture with Jennifer Wallace
414. The Disengaged Teen with Rebecca Winthrop and Jenny Anderson
369. The Good News About Adolescence with Ellen Galinsky
332. Middle School Superpowers with Phyllis Fagell
272. Middle School Matters with Phyllis Fagell

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

If you’ve ever avoided saying yes to something meaningful because you were waiting to feel less anxious or more “ready,” this episode is for you.

Cohosts Yael and Michael Herold sit down for a chat about his confidence-building online course and the misconceptions that keep people stuck, especially the idea that motivation and the “right mindset” must come first.

You’ll hear how acceptance and commitment therapy reframes anxiety as a passenger you can bring along while you drive toward your values, why rigid social scripts don’t work, and how low-stakes “comfort zone challenges” (like lying down in public) help you practice courage, defuse unhelpful thoughts, and tolerate discomfort without real-world consequences.

Join Michael and Yael for lots of practical insight, humor, and a preview of tools that can help you step into the life you want.

Listen and Learn:
Why confidence isn’t built by fixing your mindset first, but by taking action on what matters
Why you can’t learn confidence from scripts or perfect phrases, and confidence only develops through practice, not preparation
How to step outside your comfort zone by practicing small, low-stakes challenges that reveal how thoughts and emotions create avoidance, and how to disarm them so you can act on what matters instead of defaulting to fear-based reactions
Why worrying about annoying others can hold you back from confidence, and learning confidence means acting respectfully on what matters, even when that fear is present
Comfort-zone challenges to expand confidence and even meaningfully change the direction of your life
Building confidence through practical, real-world exercises with Michael’s course

Resources:
Michael’s Course: herold.coach/course

Lilly and the Wildflowers:
www.instagram.com/lilyandthewildflowers
www.lilyandthewildflowers.com

About Michael Herold
Michael (he/him) is a confidence trainer and social skills coach, based in Vienna, Austria. He’s helping his clients overcome their social anxiety through Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) and fun exposure exercises. (Though the jury is still out on whether they’re mostly fun for him). He is also a certified therapeutic game master, utilizing the Dungeons&Dragons tabletop roleplaying game to train communication, assertiveness, and teamwork with young adults. Or actually, anyone ready to roll some dice and battle goblins in a supportive group where players want to level up (pun!) their social skills. Michael is the head coach of the L.A. based company The Art of Charm, running their confidence-building program “Unstoppable” as well as workshops on small talk, storytelling, vulnerability, and more. He is the scientific advisor and co-producer of their large podcast with more than 250 million downloads. As a member of the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS), Michael is the current President of the ACT Coaching Special Interest Group with nearly 1,000 coaches worldwide, and the co-founder of the ACT in Austria Affiliate of ACBS, a nationwide meetup for ACT practitioners in Austria. He’s a public speaker who has spoken at TEDx, in front of members of parliament, universities, and once in a cinema full of 500 kids high on sugary popcorn. In a previous life, he was a character animator working on award-winning movies and TV shows such as “The Penguins of Madagascar” and “Kung Fu Panda”. That was before he realized that helping people live a meaningful life is much more rewarding than working in the film business – even though the long nights in the studio allowed him to brew his own beer in the office closet, an activity he highly recommends. Michael grew up with five foster kids who were all taken out of abusive families. His foster sisters showed him how much positive change is possible in a person if they have the love and support they need.

Related Episodes
173. Confidence, Self-Doubt, and Overcoming Limitations with Michael Herold
313. ACT-Informed Exposure for Anxiety with Brian Pilecki and Brian Thompson
195. ACT Daily with Diana Hill and Debbie Sorensen

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