Diverse Thinking Different Learning

The author of the book Turtles Can Win: How Learning Differences Taught Me to Run My Own Race and Still Cross the Finish Line, Dr. Paul R. Johnson, joins us for this episode. He is the owner and C.E.O. of Leschi Leadership LLC, a consulting firm focused on helping organizations and leaders navigate complex challenges, strengthen performance, and achieve sustainable success, and he brings extensive leadership experience from organizations such as Boeing, Microsoft, Starbucks, Junior Achievement, and the Seattle Symphony, giving him a broad perspective on organizational effectiveness and strategic change. 
A lifelong learner and educator, Dr. Johnson holds a bachelor's degree from Seattle University, multiple master's degrees, and a Doctor of Education from the University of Southern California. Outside of his professional work, Paul enjoys sports and traveling, and lives in Seattle with his wife, son, and Maltipoo puppy.
In our conversation, we discuss what happens when a capable child spends years believing they simply aren't smart enough. For Dr. Paul Johnson, the answer was a long and difficult journey through school, higher education, and eventually a career dedicated to helping others. Despite struggling with undiagnosed learning differences, he earned three master's degrees and a doctorate, but his story isn't simply about academic achievement; it's also about the years of effort, self-doubt, and persistence that made those accomplishments possible.
Dr. Johnson shares what school was like when teachers and administrators interpreted his struggles as a lack of effort, even when he knew that he was trying. We talk about the educators who recognized his potential, the strengths that helped him keep going, and the discovery that changing how he studied could make an enormous difference. He also reflects on becoming a father and recognizing aspects of his own childhood in his son's educational experience, and how that realization prompted him to examine his own learning differences more closely and to write a book that might help other students and families understand that struggling at one stage of life does not determine what comes next.
In addition, our conversation turns to the responsibility of schools and workplaces to look beyond deficits and recognize the assets that people bring. Dr. Johnson shares lessons from his work in human resources and education, including how flexible schedules, accessible tools, and attention to individual strengths can help people perform at their best.
Whether you're a parent, educator, employer, or someone who has spent years questioning your own abilities, this episode will surely offer you a different way to think about success. 

Show Notes:

[2:31] - Hear how becoming a father inspired Dr. Paul Johnson to write his book.
[3:48] - Despite struggling academically and facing low expectations, Dr. Johnson persevered through private school and graduated.
[6:03] - Dr. Johnson reflects on how undiagnosed learning differences made high school and college difficult until graduate school brought greater understanding.
[8:29] - Supportive educators recognized Dr. Johnson's strengths, while family pride motivated him to become the first college graduate.
[11:02] - Hear how Assistive technology and studying during Dr. Johnson's optimal hours helped him overcome learning challenges in graduate school.
[14:49] - Dr. Johnson pursued advanced degrees to prove that his academic success was genuine and to overcome years of doubt.
[17:10] - Although learning takes him longer, Dr. Johnson embraces his turtle-like pace and ultimately understands the material.
[18:34] - Dr. Johnson's son's struggles inspired him to share his journey and encourage students to recognize their potential.
[21:08] - Supporting children often helps adults recognize previously unidentified learning challenges in themselves.
[22:03] - Dr. Johnson's son's diagnosis revealed shared learning differences, prompting him to better understand and support both of their experiences.
[25:34] - Schools and workplaces should embrace asset-based approaches that recognize individual strengths rather than enforce standard expectations.
[28:46] - Hear how Dr. Johnson's HR experience taught him that supportive environments and advocates can help employees overcome workplace challenges.
[31:24] - It's important for educators to respect individual learning paces and focus on developing students' strengths rather than focus on their deficits.
[34:14] - Where can Dr. Johnson be reached?

Links and Related Resources:
Episode 248: The Power of Early Intervention: How Neuroplasticity Shapes Young Brains with Dr. Viannae Nelkin

Episode 258: Dyscalculia, Dyslexia, and ADHD: Why Math Feels So Overwhelming for Some Kids with Adrianne Meldrum & Heather Brand

Episode 259: Autism and ADHD Masking: The Signs & Hidden Costs with Dr. Deanna Dow

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Connect with Dr. Paul R. Johnson:
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Turtles Can Win

We are happy to warmly welcome Dr. Elizabeth Dexter-Mazza to the show for this episode. Dr. Dexter-Mazza is a licensed clinical psychologist and certified DBT therapist with more than 25 years of experience in clinical practice, training, and consultation. She co-authored DBT-based social-emotional learning curricula for elementary and secondary students and co-owns Mazza Consulting & Psychological Services and DBT in Schools with her husband, Jim Mazza. She also provides DBT treatment and professional training internationally, working with adolescents, adults, families, mental health providers, and schools, and her work is centered on promoting mental wellness and resilience through culturally responsive DBT practices and her mission to make DBT skills accessible to children through general education.
Throughout our conversation, we touch upon an important question - what if we stopped expecting children to just pay attention, manage their emotions, make good decisions, and get along with others and instead explicitly taught them the skills they need to do those things? Dr. Dexter-Mazza discusses why emotional regulation and other life skills belong alongside reading, writing, and math, and what can change when educators teach those skills instead of simply expecting students to already have them.
Elizabeth also explains what DBT actually means and how school-based DBT differs from comprehensive DBT therapy. Rather than asking teachers to become therapists, DBT Steps E gives educators developmentally appropriate ways to teach mindfulness, emotion regulation, distress tolerance, interpersonal effectiveness, and problem-solving as everyday skills. We explore how these skills can help students become more effective learners, particularly when frustration or strong emotions make it especially challenging to access the cognitive resources that are needed for learning.
We also discuss the importance of breaking seemingly simple expectations down into teachable behaviors. Elizabeth shares some examples of helping students recognize when their attention has wandered, notice an urge before acting on it, and use that brief pause as a "choice point." Dr. Dexter-Mazza explains how this approach can be especially useful for neurodivergent learners, including students with ADHD, by replacing vague instructions such as "Pay attention!" with concrete skills that can actually be practiced.
Finally, we look at what it takes to make these skills part of a school's culture rather than another curriculum that appears once a week. Dr. Dexter-Mazza shares some strategies for getting started, building teacher buy-in, and allowing successful practices to grow throughout a school or district. This conversation offers a practical look at what it means to teach children not only how to learn, but how to manage the experiences that can sometimes get in the way of learning, so we hope that you enjoy this conversation with Dr. Elizabeth Dexter-Mazza!

Show Notes:
[0:43] - Dr. Elizabeth Dexter-Mazza joins us to discuss teaching emotional regulation and problem-solving skills in elementary schools!
[2:55] - The goal is ultimately teaching students the skills that they need to become effective learners, especially in kindergarten through grade 2.
[4:10] - DBT skills developed for high-risk behaviors can benefit everyone, so they have been adapted for general education.
[7:19] - Dr. Dexter-Mazza explains how DBT teaches mindfulness and emotional skills and not just the kind of treatment provided in outpatient settings.
[10:34] - Technology leaves students little time to process emotions, making early preparation for impulsive reactions even more important!
[12:08] - Elizabeth's elementary curriculum adapts lessons to students' cognitive development and different learning needs.
[14:25] - Elizabeth believes that understanding emotions as thoughts, sensations, urges, and behaviors helps students recognize choices and respond more effectively.
[17:58] - Teachers who understand emotional dysregulation can approach their students differently and help them more effectively access learning.
[18:41] - Dr. Dexter-Mazza argues that when the emotional mind takes over, validation and other skills help students get their prefrontal cortex back online.
[20:57] - Starting DBT skills as early as kindergarten allows students to build on skills throughout their lives.
[22:01] - Teaching skills early can build more skillful communities and prevent struggles from becoming more extreme.
[24:39] - Breaking mindfulness into small, practiced behaviors helps neurodivergent learners manage distractions and focus their attention.
[27:37] - Mindfulness exercises become more effective when teachers link them to the specific skills students are practicing.
[29:50] - "Both sides" thinking helps students understand different perspectives and build stronger connections with others.
[32:15] - Hear how some simple on-task and off-task check-ins help students practice noticing where their attention is and bringing it back.
[34:18] - Ultimately, classroom teachers can build skills into everyday learning, starting wherever their school's capacity allows.
[38:17] - Find out how Elizabeth can be contacted.


Links and Related Resources:
Episode 72: Prioritizing Co-Regulation and Self-Regulation in Communication with Danielle G. Kent. M.S., CCC-SLP

Episode 79: How to Develop Social Thinking Skills with Michelle Garcia Winner, MA, CCC-SLP

Episode 251: Sensory Processing & Regulation: How Play Rewires the Brain with Dr. Allie Ticktin, MA, OTD, OTR/L

Episode 266: The Myth of the Resilient Child: When "Pushing Through" Becomes Harmful

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Connect with Lizz:
DBT in Schools

DBT in Schools - Open Enrollment Training Opportunities

DBT in Schools - Facebook

DBT in Schools - Instagram

Dr. Wilson brings us another solo episode this time, opening up about how accommodations can make an enormous difference for students who learn and process information differently. Extended time, audiobooks, speech-to-text, movement breaks, preferential seating, and other means of support can truly reduce barriers and help students participate more successfully in school, but what happens when those supports improve performance but do very little to address the underlying skills a student still needs to develop?
Dr. Wilson touches upon the distinction between accommodations, interventions, and modifications, focusing on what can happen when skill building is missing from a student's educational plan, and she explains why helping a child complete an assignment, produce more writing, or finish a test does not necessarily mean that the child is becoming a stronger reader, writer, or independent learner.
Using examples involving dyslexia, dysgraphia, ADHD, and sensory differences, Dr. Wilson examines the problems with relying solely on accommodations and discusses several examples: audiobooks can provide access to grade-level material, but they don't teach decoding; typing and speech-to-text can make it easier to express ideas, but they don't automatically strengthen written organization or language formulation; extra time and assignment chunking can reduce pressure for students with ADHD, but they don't inherently teach planning, organization, or self-monitoring.
The conversation also considers what happens as students get older. Dr. Wilson discusses the importance of pairing accommodations with evidence-based intervention and explicitly teaching skills which can gradually increase independence over time without treating support as something that should simply be removed or using skill development as an excuse to force neurodivergent students to mask.
Technology adds another interesting layer to Dr. Wilson's lecture, particularly as calculators, speech-to-text, and AI can help compensate for difficulties almost instantly. Dr. Wilson asks listeners to consider an important distinction: Are we helping students perform better right now, or helping them become more capable over time?

Show Notes:

[0:48] - This episode covers how accommodations provide essential access but cannot replace interventions that actually build underlying skills.
[3:30] - Without targeted intervention, accommodations may improve performance while still leaving the underlying difficulties without improvement.
[5:54] - Hear how effective support pairs accommodations with skill building, particularly for students struggling with reading and written expression.
[8:04] - Dr. Wilson points out that students with ADHD need explicit instruction in executive functioning skills and also accommodations that reduce those barriers.
[11:23] - Accommodations should support growth rather than lower expectations.
[14:11] - In closing, the ultimate goal is more independence, confidence, and long-term success, not just completing the next assignment.

Links and Related Resources:
Episode 237: Beyond Accommodations: How Neurodivergent Students Can Thrive in College with Eric Endlich, Ph.D
Episode 246: Accommodations, Modifications, or Remediation? How to Know What Your Child Really Needs with Amy Cushner
Episode 248: The Power of Early Intervention: How Neuroplasticity Shapes Young Brains with Dr. Viannae Nelkin
Episode 261: When Helping Becomes Overhelping: Helping Neurodivergent Kids Build Independence with Dr. Tara Williams
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This week, Dr. Karen Wilson is touching upon resilience and how our definition of it can sometimes be part of the problem. She challenges the idea that resilience means pushing through stress, staying quiet, or succeeding no matter the emotional cost. After all, a child who appears to be thriving on the outside may actually be running on empty. After a recent conversation with a parent, Dr. Wilson felt inspired to explain why good grades, athletic success, and responsible behavior don't always reflect a child's well-being, and she explores the important difference between coping and genuinely thriving, especially for children with learning and thinking differences who may work far harder than their peers while hiding their struggles.
In this episode, Dr. Wilson shares six practical ways that parents can encourage resilience without fueling burnout. She discusses why it's important to recognize effort instead of focusing solely on outcomes, make room for genuine recovery, reduce pressure to be perfect, encourage emotional honesty, recognize early warning signs of burnout, and help children understand their worth extends far beyond achievement.
Whether your child is entering a new school, adjusting to new routines, or facing the everyday demands of growing up, this conversation offers thoughtful reminders about what healthy resilience really looks like. Rather than teaching children to suppress their needs, Dr. Wilson makes the case for helping them recognize stress, seek support, recover from setbacks, and build confidence in ways that protect their mental health for years to come.

Show Notes:

[1:13] - Dr. Wilson reminds us that just because a child seems to be coping well doesn't necessarily mean that they are thriving.
[4:09] - Dr. Wilson recommends paying attention to a child's effort, not just their outcomes.
[5:00] - It's important to build rest and recovery time into a child's week.
[6:11] - Perfectionism is not necessary, so don't add pressure by encouraging it.
[7:33] - We should encourage emotional honesty.
[8:29] - Instead of waiting for a burnout crisis, look for early signs of it.
[9:35] - We are encouraged to help children and teens see that their worth goes beyond just academic achievement.
[10:51] - In closing, Dr. Wilson reminds us that healthy resilience means facing challenges while recognizing stress and protecting mental well-being.

Links and Related Resources:
Episode 253: When Motivation Disappears: How to Help Tweens and Teens Reconnect with Dr. Ellen Braaten

Episode 258: Dyscalculia, Dyslexia, and ADHD: Why Math Feels So Overwhelming for Some Kids with Adrianne Meldrum & Heather Brand

Episode 259: Autism and ADHD Masking: The Signs & Hidden Costs with Dr. Deanna Dow

Episode 261: When Helping Becomes Overhelping: Helping Neurodivergent Kids Build Independence with Dr. Tara Williams

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Connect with Us:
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Email Dr. Wilson: drkiwilson@westlaneuro.com

Transitioning back to school after summer vacation can be challenging for many children, especially those who are neurodivergent. Continuing the Summer Solo Series, Dr. Karen Wilson shares seven practical, actionable strategies to help make the transition smoother.
Dr. Wilson explains why even children who are genuinely excited to return to school may still experience significant anxiety. Changes in routine, increased cognitive and sensory demands, unfamiliar environments, and shifting social expectations can create overwhelming stress before classes even begin. Understanding these challenges helps parents replace frustration with compassion and provide more effective support.
In this episode, you'll learn why gradually reintroducing routines, using visual supports, and building in decompression time can ease the transition back to school. Dr. Wilson also shares practical strategies for preparing for social and sensory challenges and partnering with educators before problems arise.
Throughout the conversation, Dr. Wilson highlights that these approaches aren't about eliminating every obstacle (as much as we would love to do that for our kids, it simply isn't possible); they're about giving children the tools and support that they need to meet those challenges with greater confidence, so whether your child is entering a new school, moving up to a new grade, or simply finding transitions in general difficult, this episode offers some practical ideas to help make the transition smoother both for kids and their caregivers!

Show Notes:

[0:50] - Today's Summer Solo Series episode covers seven practical ways to help neurodivergent children transition back to school at the end of summer.
[3:43] - Hear how preparation eases school-transition anxiety by reducing uncertainty for neurodivergent children.
[5:26] - Remember to gradually establish routines before school begins to reduce stress and support emotional regulation.
[6:34] - Dr. Wilson describes how to avoid unnecessary surprises.
[8:12] - Dr. Wilson explains how visual tools and structured routines can help reduce executive functioning overload during the back-to-school transition.
[10:00] - Remember to build decompression time into the day.
[12:20] - Hear how to prepare proactively for social stress.
[14:08] - Proactive sensory support helps children manage overstimulation before it becomes too overwhelming.
[15:21] - It's important to collaborate with schools before problems even arise.
[17:07] - Dr. Wilson reminds listeners that transitions are challenging because so is growth, even when it's positive.

Links and Related Resources:
Episode 235: Why Stress Sabotages Learning and How Parents and Educators Can Help with Jerome Schultz, PhD

Episode 251: Sensory Processing & Regulation: How Play Rewires the Brain with Dr. Allie Ticktin, MA, OTD, OTR/L

Episode 252: How to Make the School System Work for Your Child with Stacey Shubitz

Episode 260: How Dyslexia Impacts Mental Health (Episode 212 Re-Air)

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Email Dr. Wilson: drkiwilson@westlaneuro.com