Diverse Thinking Different Learning

We warmly welcome Dr. Deanna Dow to the podcast. ​​Dr. Dow is a licensed clinical psychologist with over two decades of experience supporting neurodivergent individuals and families. She is the founder and CEO of Spectrum Psych LA, a multidisciplinary clinic that provides assessment, therapy, occupational therapy, medication management, and community-based support, and she has trained and worked in autism clinics and research centers at major institutions including the University of Michigan, the University of North Carolina, Florida State University, and UCLA where her research has focused on early autism identification, parent-led intervention models, and co-occurring mental health concerns such as anxiety, depression, and suicidal ideation.
Dr. Dow also serves as President of the Spectrum Psych Foundation for Inclusion and Empowerment, promoting access, advocacy, and inclusive mental health care and continues to provide psychotherapy and assessment services using a strengths-based, neurodiversity-affirming approach.
In this episode, Dr. Dow helps us unpack the far too often unseen work that neurodivergent individuals put into "blending in" via masking and camouflaging. We explore how strategies such as suppressing natural behaviors, imitating peers, and adhering to social expectations can quietly shape a child's and/or adult's life. We discuss the toll that this effort can take, from drained energy and heightened anxiety to delayed or missed diagnoses, and why it's especially prevalent among girls, high-achieving students, and those with strong cognitive or verbal abilities.

Dr. Dow shares with us some concrete examples of how masking shows up in classrooms, recess, and everyday social situations, highlighting subtle behaviors that often go unnoticed but signal that a child or teen could be struggling on the inside. We talk about the impact of masking on emotional well-being, academic performance, and social connections, while also addressing additional conditions such as ADHD and how overlapping symptoms can further complicate diagnoses and support systems.
We also explore the relief and empowerment that can come with later diagnoses and reframe neurodivergence as a difference rather than a deficit. This conversation is a close look at the hidden effort behind "fitting in" and what it takes to help neurodivergent individuals thrive on their own terms.

Show Notes:

[3:15] - Dr. Dow explains how masking helps allow neurodivergent individuals to fit in, but the effort can often cause exhaustion and anxiety.
[6:02] - Hear how children with autism or ADHD may mask behaviors, causing hidden stress and internalized anxiety.
[9:14] - Dr. Dow argues that social control can drain energy, creating crashes if breaks and regulation opportunities aren't provided.
[12:30] - Many kids appear fine at school but release built-up tension at home from masking effort.
[13:04] - For a lot of kids, home can provide a safe space where they can unload, even if external masking still persists.
[15:45] - Early assessments can help prevent anxiety, build self-understanding, and teach when masking or authenticity is beneficial.
[18:12] - Dr. Dow points out how social withdrawal may reflect beyond negative feedback, not lack of motivation, and that masking can often delay diagnosis.
[21:08] - Many subtle autism signs go unnoticed, so early observation and education are incredibly important for support.
[24:30] - Hear how parents often feel relief after evaluation, realizing that cognitive strengths previously masked signs of autism.
[25:54] - Assessment has the potential to empower youth by explaining that struggles stem from brainwiring, not personal shortcomings.
[26:41] - Hear Dr. Dow explain how neurodivergence openly helps children understand their strengths and challenges.
[28:43] - Dr. Deanna Dow believes that reassuring parents too much can delay recognition of differences and necessary support for kids.
[30:20] - Dr. Dow explains how validating diverse behaviors can help build safety and acceptance.
[33:14] - Dr. Dow argues that educators who understand neurodivergence can help students regulate, feel authentic, and promote more inclusive classrooms.
[35:32] - Hear how you can get in touch with Dr. Dow.

Links and Related Resources:
Episode 38: Understanding the Gifted and Twice Exceptional Child with Dr. Nicole Tetreault

Episode 119: Autistic Girls – Overlooked and Underrecognized with Megan Beardmore, PhD, NCSP

Episode 196: Gifted and/or Autistic with Megan Helmen, Psy.D., L.P.

Episode 226: Is It Autism? Recognizing, Assessing & Supporting Children and Teens with Dr. Chandni Singh

Episode 197: Five Best Practices for Math Instruction – Dr. Sarah Powell

More Podcast Episodes

 
Connect with Dr. Deanna Dow:
Spectrum Psych


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We are so thrilled to have not just one guest this episode but two -  Adrianne Meldrum and Heather Brand! Adrianne Meldrum founded and owns Made for Math, a fully online math center that supports students with dyslexia, dyscalculia, and other math-related learning challenges. She is a certified Multisensory Math Instructor and holds a master's degree from Bridges Graduate School of Cognitive Diversity. Adrianne lives in Arizona with her husband and three sons, where she enjoys the beautiful sunsets.
Heather Brand, M.Ed., is a licensed educator with two decades of experience teaching students from Kindergarten through 12th grade. She currently works at Made for Math, supporting learners with dyslexia, dyscalculia, and other learning differences, and holds certifications in multisensory math instruction and reading intervention. Heather is passionate about sharing practical, structured strategies that help teachers confidently support all students while making math engaging and enjoyable.

In this episode of the show, we unpack why dyscalculia is so hard to identify and why it often overlaps with conditions such as dyslexia and ADHD/ADD. In fact, Adrianne and Heather talk about how many of the students whom they see arrive with multiple diagnoses, and that raises a truly important question: when a child struggles with math, what's really causing the difficulty?
Throughout our conversation, we take a look at how professionals sort through those overlapping factors, and Adrianne and Heather explain how assessments can reveal specific types of math struggles, whether they involve language, memory, sequencing, or foundational number sense, and they explain why understanding the root cause is so important.
We also talk through some real classroom scenarios and case studies that showcase how these challenges actually take place in everyday learning. From students who can perform calculations but freeze when faced with word problems, to those who mix up the direction of their work or struggle to recall math facts, all of these examples help clarify what educators and parents should watch out for.
In addition, we discuss practical strategies that can help students succeed! Adrianne and Heather share some approaches that build on understanding, strengthen math fact retrieval, and reduce the working memory load that can often overwhelm students, especially those with ADHD. They also touch upon how simple environmental changes, such as minimizing distractions and organizing information more clearly, can dramatically improve learning.
Perhaps most importantly, however, we discuss how the right kind of instruction doesn't just improve math performance. It can actually rebuild confidence and reduce the anxiety that often accompanies math struggles! Enjoy our conversation with Adrianne Meldrum and Heather Brand!

Show Notes:

[3:56] - Dyscalculia is often diagnosed late and overlaps with other conditions, further complicating diagnosis.
[6:44] - Early math struggles so often go unnoticed, yet they affect multiple areas alongside reading or attention difficulties.
[9:50] - Students may calculate correctly but fail at word problems because of language or vocabulary challenges.
[10:37] - Heather reflects on multi-diagnosed students who often show math difficulties that overlap with dyslexia, ADHD, or dysgraphia symptoms.
[12:47] - When Heather assesses, she assesses whether math struggles stem from dyscalculia or other diagnoses.
[15:30] - Observing students' problem-solving can help reveal specific issues such as directionality, that are separate from place value understanding.
[16:49] - We hear how conceptual understanding uses visuals, while fact retrieval relies on memorization and fluency practice.
[19:50] - Heather discusses how she uses cues and repetition before timed exercises, helping students get things right before they start doing them automatically.
[23:47] - We hear how schema-based strategies teach students to analyze story problems, rather than linking words directly to operations.
[26:23] - Heather explains and breaks down the ROMANS strategy.
[29:34] - ADHD increases cognitive demands in math, making working memory and flexible problem-solving even more difficult.
[30:15] - Adrianne reflects on how minimizing task switching and using visual support helps students with ADHD maintain attention and limit mistakes.
[33:33] - Multiple sources for instructions can sometimes confuse students, so limiting transitions and providing frequent feedback is so important!
[35:49] - Adrianne explains how reducing visual and language clutter helps protect working memory and boosts student confidence and learning ability.
[37:42] - Matching instruction to a child's learning profile can drastically help increase engagement, understanding, and self-confidence!
[38:19] - Adrianne highlights how evidence-based strategies benefit all students, not just those with diagnoses.
[40:16] - How can listeners connect with Adrianne and Heather?

Links and Related Resources:
Episode 59: What is Dyscalculia (AKA Math Disorder)? with Monica Grillo

Episode 60: A Multisensory Intervention for Kids Who Struggle with Math with Adrianne Meldrum

Episode 122: Accommodations for Students Who Struggle with Math with Adrianne Meldrum

Episode 197: Five Best Practices for Math Instruction – Dr. Sarah Powell

More Podcast Episodes

 
Connect with Adrianne & Heather:
Made for Math


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We are so excited to have Lynn Greenberg join us for this edition of the show. Lynn has devoted her life to being an advocate for children as a trained attorney specializing in family law and pro bono work. When her youngest son, Jonathan, was diagnosed with dyslexia and ADHD, she stepped into the role of being his advocate, using her expertise to help carve a path toward his success. The experience inspired her to support neurodivergent children more broadly, and she discusses how co-writing the children's book Robby the Dyslexic Taxi and the Airport Adventure with Jonathan became a natural next step, allowing her to create characters in whom neurodivergent children can see themselves.
We talk about how storytelling can help children recognize that learning differences are not flaws but are meaningful parts of who they are, one of Lynn's goals in writing two books with her son, and she reflects on her journey into advocacy. She discusses how teachers struggled to understand why a bright, curious kid like her son Jonathan, a boy who could memorize them in their entirety, had trouble reading stories. Eventually, he was diagnosed with dyslexia and ADHD, diagnoses that answered some questions while also opening doors to new challenges such as finding the right educational environment, understanding how Jonathan's brain processed language, and helping him see his differences as strengths rather than weaknesses.
Lynn reflects on what those early years were like for her family, including the frustration of encountering teachers who lacked training in dyslexia and the relief of discovering a specialized school that finally taught Jonathan in a way that worked for him. That experience reshaped how Lynn viewed education, advocacy, and the importance of listening closely to what children actually need.
In our conversation, Lynn talks about why storytelling can reach children in ways that traditional educational resources often can't and how thoughtful design choices (such as dyslexia-friendly fonts) make books more accessible. She also discusses why representation matters so deeply for kids who rarely see themselves reflected in stories, and she offers some encouragement for parents who are beginning their own journeys after a diagnosis. 

Show Notes:
[2:50] - Lynn reflects on how Jonathan's delayed milestones led to dyslexia and ADHD diagnoses.
[5:39] - Hear how, after inadequate school support, a specialized program truly transformed Jonathan's confidence and reading ability.
[8:31] - Lynn explains how listening to children's needs and celebrating differences helped inspire creating a dyslexia-centered children's book.
[11:09] - Hear why storytelling was chosen - to help neurodivergent children feel seen, understood, and represented.
[14:02] - Stories and accessible design can help kids embrace differences with understanding, empathy, and pride.
[15:08] - Lynn asserts that accessible design and engaging characters help readers embrace differences as strengths and superpowers!
[18:32] - Hear how classroom readings spark meaningful conversations, helping children feel seen and hopeful about their differences.
[21:12] - Parents should embrace their child's individuality and seek community support.
[23:25] - Lynn asserts that progress requires patience, but support and perseverance lead to growth, success, and brighter futures!
[25:10] - Hear how Lynn can be reached!

Links and Related Resources:
More Podcast Episodes

Lynn & Jonathan Greenberg - Robby the Dyslexic Taxi and the Airport Adventure

Lynn & Jonathan Greenberg - Suzy the ADHD Taxi and the Sightseeing Adventure

 
Connect with Lynn:
Creative Cab Company's Website

Creative Cab Company's Instagram Page

Creative Cab Company's YouTube Page


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We are so happy to have Dr. Elina Veytsman join us for this episode of the show! Dr. Elina Veytsman is a licensed psychologist and the Director of Training at the UCLA PEERS® Clinic, where she leads groups for neurodivergent youth and their caregivers while also training interns, postdocs, and professionals. She earned her Psychology degrees at UCLA and UC Riverside, researching developmental disabilities and transition experiences for youth and parents, and completed her doctoral internship providing therapy, parent training, and diagnostic assessment services. Since joining the UCLA PEERS® Clinic in 2014, she has delivered the PEERS® program in multiple settings and also provides individualized PEERS services through a private practice in Los Angeles.

Dr. Elina Veytsman joins us to discuss how we help neurodivergent teens and young adults explore dating in ways that are both safe and authentic to who they are. We unpack the importance of supporting relationship development for neurodivergent youth without removing their agency or individuality, and we start off by unpacking a common misconception - that autistic or neurodivergent youth are not interested in romantic relationships. In reality, many deeply want connection but may not have been given clear, explicit guidance about the social patterns that others often learn more informally.
Our conversation in this episode explores how dating skills are teachable rather than innate, and Dr. Veytsman explains that social skills such as reciprocal conversation, recognizing romantic interest, understanding boundaries, and processing rejection can be broken into concrete, observable steps. Much of the work that she discusses is grounded in research and sociological observation, with more than 75 scientific papers supporting PEERS® programming. This episode of the podcast also touches upon how social cognition, perspective-taking, and communication differences can affect dating experiences.
Safety and vulnerability are also major themes that we talk about, and we discuss risks such as online exploitation, misreading friendliness as romantic interest, and the challenge of recognizing subtle social cues. Dr. Veytsman highlights that vulnerability often comes from inexperience rather than neurodivergence itself and that education about red flags, consent, and online behavior can be very protective!
Our discussion also highlights the strengths-based philosophy behind PEERS®. Rather than changing identity or forcing conformity, the program focuses on expanding communication tools, building confidence, and supporting young people as they pursue relationships that feel meaningful to them. If you are a parent, clinician, or someone interested in how neurodivergent youth can approach dating with confidence and safety, then this episode is not one that you will want to miss!

Show Notes:

[2:44] - Dr. Veytsman explains how romantic skills often begin in adolescence, starting with friendship and learning conversation, boundaries, and recognizing shared interests.
[5:24] - Dating challenges could include one-sided conversations, so the program first teaches reciprocal communication before introducing relationship-specific skills.
[7:10] - Dr. Veytsman discusses how limited peer learning and social cue misunderstanding can increase vulnerability to online exploitation.
[10:23] - Hear how perspective-taking and social cognition can be strengthened like a muscle with structured practice of social thinking and empathy skills.
[12:20] - Early training in communication, risk awareness, and perception helps build meaningful relationships by improving social understanding and behavior awareness.
[13:42] - Vulnerability often arises from limited experience; explicit education helps youth recognize manipulation, red flags, and online safety risks.
[16:41] - The PEERS® program is a strengths-based, neurodiversity-respecting, and skill-building dating / social development program for neurodivergent youth!
[17:11] - Preparation, coaching, and education help autistic youth build healthy relationships via learning consent, rejection, safety, and partner recognition.
[19:21] - We learn that approximately 70% of participants involve parents learning to coach social skills while respecting individuals' goals.
[22:52] - Hear how the program truly promotes neurodiversity, teaches social tools for connection, and encourages personal choice rather than masking.
[25:16] - Dating education covers rejection, boundaries, consent, and flirting as observable, research-grounded behaviors.
[27:59] - We further learn how flirting and interest are taught via low-risk signals such as eye contact, smiles, and reciprocal conversation exchanges.
[30:44] - Hear why online profiles should present clear, positive, authentic information and use profile-specific messages to initiate meaningful contact.
[33:13] - Caregivers can help reinforce skills with praise-based feedback, homework practice, and shared interest activities.
[36:57] - Evidence shows that PEERS® improves dating behavior, confidence, social participation, and relationship skill use across research studies!
[40:08] - How can Dr. Veytsman be contacted?

Links and Related Resources:
More Podcast Episodes

Episode 43: Building Social Competence and Enhancing Social Skills with Dr. Elizabeth Laugeson

Jane and Terry Semel Institute for Neuroscience and Human Behavior - UCLA PEERS® Clinic

 
Connect with Dr. Elina Veytsman:
Center for Pediatric Neuropsychology

Email: [email protected]

 
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Join us for this episode of Diverse Thinking, Different Learning as we welcome Liz Angoff Ph.D. to the podcast. Dr. Angoff is a Licensed Educational Psychologist and Diplomate in School Neuropsychology who offers assessment and consultation services for children and families in the Bay Area, California. She wrote the Brain Building Books series and Our Brains, which help neurodivergent children better understand, appreciate, and advocate for their unique minds. Learn more about Dr. Liz and her work at her Explaining Brains website.
Throughout our conversation, we talk about how when one child in a family is identified as neurodivergent, the focus understandably shifts to evaluations, therapies, and advocacy, but what about the sibling who is watching it all unfold, quietly forming their own explanations about meltdowns, extra appointments, and uneven attention? We discuss why children are natural "meaning makers" and what can happen when adults leave gaps in the story. Dr. Angoff explains her approach to sharing diagnoses - starting with asking the neurodivergent child for permission before telling a sibling.
Dr. Angoff also walks us through how to translate assessment results into language that kids can actually use, including her "highways and construction projects" metaphor for strengths and challenges. Hear how this shared framework reduces blame, increases empathy, and helps siblings see both themselves and each other more clearly. We also address the real questions siblings ask: Why does my brother get more attention than I do? Is this my fault? Does that mean I have it too?
Dr. Angoff offers some practical scripts for validating those feelings while reinforcing a powerful message: attention may shift, but love is absolutely not divided. The conversation also covers privacy and how to treat a diagnosis as the child's story to share, as well as how to equip siblings with the language to explain differences to friends without making them responsible for managing everything.
Perhaps most importantly, this episode of the show really reframes these talks as an ongoing process rather than a one-time thing. As children grow, their questions change, and so should the conversation.  If you're raising neurodivergent kids and want every child in your family to feel informed, valued, and included, this discussion with Dr. Liz Angoff will surely give you the language, perspective, and practical tools to start!

Show Notes:

[2:40] - Dr. Angoff talks about how inviting kids into diagnostic conversations naturally raises questions about siblings.
[3:00] - Without clear explanations, siblings often invent their own stories regarding what's happening.
[3:43] - Early conversations can help reshape harmful narratives and prevent siblings from forming inaccurate roles.
[6:00] - Dr. Angoff reflects on how families work best when kids own their story and guide what others learn.
[9:36] - Dr. Angoff asserts that concrete, age-appropriate examples can help siblings grasp complicated diagnoses.
[10:54] - Dr. Angoff discusses how using shared brain metaphors leads to empathy and mutual understanding between siblings.
[13:08] - Highlighting strengths and "construction projects" can help siblings respond with empathy.
[16:04] - Dr. Angoff explains how shared brain language reduces blame while ensuring that every child's needs matter.
[19:04] - Dr. Angoff explains how openness and reassurance can help siblings feel valued despite unequal attention.
[22:03] - Even when attention shifts, love remains constant and intentional!
[23:23] - Dr. Angoff asserts that honest conversations can help prevent siblings from believing that they matter less.
[25:30] - Families protect diagnostic privacy while equipping siblings to respond confidently!
[28:54] - Descriptive explanations of behaviors can help siblings understand and support each other!
[29:19] - Dr. Angoff believes that siblings should share responsibility for advocacy while also seeking adult help when overwhelmed.
[30:58] - Conversations around diagnosis should happen gradually, focusing on practical and present needs.
[33:04] - Hear how stories, visuals, and resources can help families explain neurodiversity in accessible ways.
[34:00] - Dr. Angoff believes that empowering language around neurodivergence helps support positive family narratives and understanding.
 
Links and Related Resources:
More Podcast Episodes

Episode 137: Helping Kids Understand Their Amazing Brains with Dr. Liz Angoff

 
Connect with Dr. Angoff:
Explaining Brains

Dr. Angoff's Books

 
Join Our Community:
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